Given the history of the land and amount of casualties, I’d be generous to Israel to even attribute 50% of the fault to Hamas, but I’d like to hear why you believe they are at fault for 90% of it? Got no stakes here outside of the humanitarian crisis, just want to understand better.
They are the ones benefitting from civilian casualties as opposed to Israel. They are the ones shooting from civilian infrastructure and holding their own women and children hostage. So as far as I’m concerned Hamas is getting them killed, either deliberately or because they simply don’t care.
The issue is beyond complex to capture in a single comment.
But the big issue no one will look past (nor should they) is how Israel would fare without US support and iron dome. Or how cease fire resulted in deaths.
Two can be true, Israel government is evil and so is Hamas. But at the same time, Israeli people shouldn’t be pushed under the rug like they don’t matter. It’s hypocrisy to only back Palestine and ignore what Israeli people go through. I don’t think I would be very happy knowing a missile can land on my head at any moment or myself or my family could be murdered/raped/captured any day… Then to add to it, some random redditor will call it “bullshit” because I can’t prove my loved ones are missing.
A comment that forever will haunt me, believe all rape victims unless they’re Jewish. It’s beyond fucked how people picked sides. It’s not a contest of who has it worse. Both populations live in fear and would be wiped out if the opposite government has its way. It’s just happen Israel is going on a bigger rampage and will use any provocation to keep it up.
How do you solve it? I don’t know. As I said, it’s fucked but I’m sick and tired of people painting it black and white because they read a smart looking comment on reddit/twitter/seen stupid uneducated twat make political comments on youtube.
Without hamas doing hamas shit, the global political sphere would have to acknowledge the reality. But both sides are invested into the slaughter continuing.
Gaza didn’t do that. Hamas did that. And now Gaza is being bombed to smithereens. My comparison sticks. “Why did you make me do this” is such a common thing to hear from narcissists who take no responsibility for their own actions. The IDF do not need to respond to violence with more violence, and nobody is making them. The appropriate and honorable reaction would be to set up the rigorous spy network they should have had from the get-go, and capture and prosecute the actual people of Hamas who assaulted them, not bomb the everloving shit out of Gaza.
What incentive would they have to hold back? The propaganda war was pretty much lost for Isreal after multiple disinformation stories were uncritically amplified by western media. The people who hate them won’t change their mind if they stop. Hamas clearly has to go and what you’re describing might make for a good spy novel but would be a shitty military tactic. What they are doing isn’t pretty but probably necessary and easily justified.
You make two pretty bad assertions here bud. First, there’s no incentive. That’s the point. It’s kind of a big part of self-governing. Like when somebody puts a grocery cart away instead of leaving it in the parking lot, except where this example is ultimately of no consequence, not killing innocent people is the baseline.
Second, military tactic my ass. I’m not talking about military tactics, I’m talking about ways to punish Hamas. There’s a lot of ways to do it, and this GENOCIDE is THE wrong way to do it.
This is the whitest take I ever read in my entire life and it shows that you know nothing about warfare whatsoever. There’s a tangible military goal: Dismantling Hamas. They want to keep fighting and hide behind meat shields which makes them exceptional cowards, even for terrorists. So yeah, stop guzzling the cum of people who would gladly slice your throat for being an infidel. Or don’t I don’t care and neither does Israel.
You can defend the usage of human shields if you want but international law disagrees with your perspective. Israel is still working with caution, if they shot through every meat shield the death toll would be at least one order of magnitude higher.
Brother are you stupid? I’m not defending the use of human hostages, nor human shields. Here, maybe I have to spell this out for you. Just because I think the IDF is doing a bad thing, does not mean I think Hamas is doing a good thing. I think both sides are doing pretty deplorable things, actually. I’m critical of the IDF because they’re funded and operated by a sovereign nation, and therefore should be held to high standards. Is that bite size enough for you, or do I need to cut the sentences into smaller chunks?
Israel issuing a warning that they’re going to bomb a location does not mean that they aren’t going to hit Innocents. That’s not careful.
I’m going to use a hypothetical here, let me know if that’s too advanced for you.
Say Hamas takes a hostage, right, and hides in a hospital. Israel says they’re going to bomb the hospital, so all Innocents should leave. Do you actually think Hamas would just let the hostage go? If the IDF then bombs that hospital, then the hostage dies, right?
You clearly consumed all of the stupid juice lmao. You’re basically giving hamas a blank check on using human shields if you say that no amount of civilian casualties due to human shields are acceptable. You’re pretty much asking them to shield their fighters, ammo and fuel with as many civilians as they possibly can. Almost sounds like you are the one who wants them killed so you can yell about how bad Israel is.
Let me spell it out again: If you use civilian infrastructure to conduct military operations you are painting a target sign on them since they become legitimate military targets. Israel still has to do strike assessments but if they figure out it’s worth it the can strike it.
Imagine you had a policy that cops can never shoot puppies and some psycho wraps himself in a dozen of them and goes to shoot up an elementary school. Would you want someone to pull the trigger and potentially get some of the puppies killed or would you want them to wait until he runs out of ammo or maybe just negotiate with the psycho and convince him to just kill half of the children or something?
To address your scenario: Hospitals have a somewhat higher protection class than most other civilian assets. As opposed to the opinion of random shitters on the internet, they won’t just bomb anything without doing a strike assessment first. This encompasses things like - How will engaging this target advance our goal of taking out hamas? Will an attack take out high value targets or assets? How many civilians and friendly soldiers are likely to die if we take a specific action?
Running through this analysis, using a large diameter bomb on a hospital is off the table from the get go. Hamas has already shown that they gladly get their own civilians killed, since dead civilians are bad for Isreals international standing. Instead they may opt to storm it with infantry and clear it this way. The issue is, this could still get lots of civilians killed and also their own soilders. Since the IDF are pretty limited on people they won’t take engagements where they can expect to get like 30% of the people they send in killed or wounded. They may go for a third option and use something like those hellfire missiles. This may or may not work, will likely still get civilians killed and maybe not take out the people they want to. In that scenario they’d likely opt to not engage the target and wait for a better opportunity.
If you can’t see how fucked up it is for someone to use hostages and first and foremost their own people as a bargaining chip to perform military actions against another country then I can’t help you. Be better. Don’t simp for terrorists.
If you consider me replying after a week or so because I didn’t even read your message until now “rent free” then I guess your brain is just a bit broken. Makes sense considering your opinion. Farewell, there’s no fun in dunking on people with mental deficiencies anyways.
The UN or ICC or whoever are not the world police.
They are supposed to be, though, and would be if the Big 5 on the security council would let them.
what they can do at this stage is very limited.
Especially since they’re hamstrung by the dogged US government insistence that everyone’s eyes and ears have been lying about Israel for the past 75 years.
I see no problem with limiting my being in lemmy to 10 minutes a day, I comment when I feel like it. Troll? Only when it comes to shitposting. This is not the case.
Last I checked I was not the one supporting aid stealing, gay beheading, murderers and rapists. Once you open your eyes to what’s really happening, you’d see the way to support the Palestinians (really) is to remove hamas and give them actual hopes for the future.
This would also require to stop the education system where they are basically brainwashed that killing Jews is the way to go. Check it out, fun stuff. Israel left gaza in 2005 and they could have built a productive and peaceful country. The only export they had was flying metal pipes and death to all those around them. And before your write “But mah blockade”, it wasn’t imposed before 2007.
On a side note - I truly wish for more peaceful days, where the Palestinians could also live in peace. But that cannot happen as long as they wish for my death.
the way to support the Palestinians (really) is to remove hamas and give them actual hopes for the future.
I’m all for getting rid of Hamas, but not by indiscriminately massacring civilians. Not only has the Israeli government themselves said that they kill twice as many civilians than Hamas, they actually consider that a GOOD ratio!
Israel left gaza in 2005
Not that old chestnut again 🙄 They still had complete control of its borders and as such were carrying on with the oppression.
they could have built a productive and peaceful country
No they fucking couldn’t! Not with the Israeli government controlling their borders, torturing and killing children for throwing rocks and leveling a city block every time a primitive rocket from the terrorists was stopped by the Iron Dome.
The only export they had was flying metal pipes and death to all those around them
Pretty difficult to export anything when you don’t have control of your own borders, dumbass.
And before your write “But mah blockade”, it wasn’t imposed before 2007.
Gaza has been effectively cut off from the world since long before that and you know it.
Are you a paid propagandist or are you just simping for a fascist apartheid regime and their genocidal campaign for free because you’re a heartless imbecile?
From short banter this has become a “discussion” (I seriously doubt where you get your info because at best it’s based on half-truths), so I’d like to answer seriously here. I need to go to sleep so I’ll try to keep at as concise as possible. I have no delusions that you might change your views here. However I’d like to give a few points for thought, as the internet as it’s built today is easily turned into an echo chamber, no matter our opinions. While it may take time for me to reply further, I’ll try to reply to anything you may have to say further down this discussion, and I come in good faith.
Starting from the end - no, I’m not a paid propagandist. Neither am I a simp for a “fascist apartheid regime”. However to have full disclosure - I have a stake in this, I’m an Israeli myself, and would consider myself quite knowledgeable about the geopolitics of the conflict, also going around, meeting people for all around the compass (from working with lots of arabs in Israel to going to talks around Hebron with anti-Israeli organizations just to get the full picture). While I was not a combat soldier myself so I don’t take an active part in the fighting right now, I have family and friends who do take part and have told me from first accounts on what happens there. Some also have been victims of the October 7th attacks (“fortunately”, no one close to me had died or been kidnapped, but friends of friends have been). So I do have a stake in this. Take it as you will.
For stealing aid - there are testimonies from Gazan citizens (aired live and cut abruptly on al-jazeera for not fitting the nerrative) that Hamas takes most of the aid entering Gaza. And there have been cases on camera where hamas people shot civilians who tried to go near the aid. Israel stealing it? It’s coming from Israel right now. In the beginning of the war Israel demanded it can’t come from Israel so it was transferred from Egypt, but later due to the Rafah crossing not being enough Israel began transporting aid directly, to the anger of lots of Israelis who know the hostages are basically deprived of both food and any medical treatment whatsoever.
For LGBT rights, I’ll take just one example but it’s basically regarded as a death sentence to be openly LGBT in Gaza. See here for example.
Murderers and rapists abundant in the IDF? Only case I can seriously think of is Elor Azaria, which while operationally stupid and criminally wrong (he was jailed for that), was not against uninvolved civilians, however wrong it was anyways. As for rapists - the IDF avoids rape so much that it has been accused of racism for “not raping Palestinian women”, you can’t make that shit up.
There is no indiscriminate bombing, with attacks cancelled if civilians are found nearby, with Israel going out of it’s way with knocking on roofs and yes, giving proper warnings for the population to move to safer spots. Are there no mishaps? Of course there are, this is war and it’s unavoidable. The forces on the ground actually take risks to try and not hurt civilians, but this is a very densely populated area and military infrastructure inside/near schools and mosques does not help.
Israel does not have complete control of the border, there is also a border with Egypt which is also closed, for the same reasons. They actually opened it while the Muslim Brotherhood was in power, but closed it later due to terrorism rising in the Sinai peninsula. Israel also allowed workers from Gaza to work in Israel, and goods to enter as long as they were not usable for military uses. There was still lots of smuggling apparent from there being lots of foreign made weaponry and ATGMs in Hamas possession.
Do note that Israel does not torture children for throwing rocks. At the worst case they’d be arrested, and lots of soldiers basically complain they are forbidden from doing anything to them, so they leave them be. Also while it’s reported as “rocks”, those are sometimes actual bricks and large rocks, which when thrown at moving cars can easily kill. In any way, those kids should stay in school and/or not engage in violent activity.
And Gaza is very much not really cut off from the world. They had imports which you wouldn’t believe, with some Gazans living in some luxury houses and car dealerships for luxury brands in Gaza. I’m not saying there are not poor people there (there are lots), but it’s not what it’s portrayed to be.
And I’ll return to my start of the comment (or your comment’s end). While Israel has lots of things to improve upon and yes, you can argue a lot about the validity of actions in the west bank - this is also an internal debate among Israelis. We have fair elections, a strong judicial system (if you’d look it up it blocked a lot of the current government’s initiatives) and some crazy freedom of speech. Minorities have equal rights by law (and then some affirmative action on top of that), while still not perfect it’s there. I’d refrain from using the word “fascist” when there are actual oppressive regimes in the world.
I wish you a good day and a real peace soon, with the release of all hostages. Good night.
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