Israeli Hostage Says She Was Sexually Assaulted and Tortured in Gaza

Ms. Soussana, 40, is the first Israeli to speak publicly about being sexually assaulted during captivity after the Hamas-led raid on southern Israel. In her interviews with The Times, conducted mostly in English, she provided extensive details of sexual and other violence she suffered during a 55-day ordeal.

Ms. Soussana’s personal account of her experience in captivity is consistent with what she told two doctors and a social worker less than 24 hours after she was freed on Nov. 30. Their reports about her account state the nature of the sexual act; The Times agreed not to disclose the specifics.

. . .

For months, Hamas and its supporters have denied that its members sexually abused people in captivity or during the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. This month, a United Nations report said that there was “clear and convincing information” that some hostages had suffered sexual violence and there were “reasonable grounds” to believe sexual violence occurred during the raid, while acknowledging the “challenges and limitations” of examining the issue.

Archive

Hedlosa,

Just joined Lemmy, holy shit this instance is full of nazis and genocide apologists what the fuck, tell me how many women do you think the IDF have raped over the last 75 years? Hell even just since oct 7?

brownchoc,

It started off OK but now its been infiltrated by the IDF propagandists

RizzRustbolt,

“And now you can’t call us out for totally fucking up with that other article.”

speaker_hat,

When Hamas can’t harm the IDF, they harm the innocent, of both Palestinians and Israelis.

This is not a call only of Israeli women, but a call of every women to be possibly be near these savage people.

ZombiFrancis,

While an unfortunate and harrowing ordeal she suffered, her experience highlights a sort of proof that systemic and mass sexual assault is not a weaponized tool of Hamas: reinforcing the grim reality that warfare and the mechanisms that perpetuate it create this kind of collateral destruction. Rules are defined by their exceptions, after all.

FreudianCafe,

What color of crayon you like to eat the most?

eran_morad,

Fuck outta here wit this shit.

assassin_aragorn, (edited )

Well. This is pretty significant. I would say it’s rather damning evidence that considerably raises the bar to doubt these claims.

There’s a lot I could say here. Hamas is a bunch reprehensible fucks. It’s disappointing that we needed concrete evidence because of how untrustworthy the IDF is. But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no “good guy” or “right side” among the war combatants. It’s awful people fighting awful people. Hamas and the IDF both deserve nothing but contempt and scorn, and both should be dismantled for their crimes against humanity.

I’ve tried to be very precise with my wording because none of what I just said applies to the Palestinian nor Israeli people. The civilians and innocent people are caught between two legions of hell and are the ones paying the price. The kidnapped and tortured Israelis, the Palestinian people – both of them are suffering at the hands of both Hamas and the Israeli government.

Neither of them care about the civilians. They use them as lambs for sacrifice and control the flow of information to manufacture hate and support for the war. It’s become readily apparent that the IDF and Hamas just want to keep fighting, and they’re manipulating the civilians to support them. If both peoples were getting the true, unfiltered information – sights of dying Palestinian children, demolished buildings, accounts of Israeli hostages – I think they’d be appalled at what “their side” is doing.

I really hope the majority would be appalled, because there can’t be any peace until they recognize their shared suffering and humanity. And to be clear, the majority of suffering is clearly inflicted on the Palestinians.

Edit: I’m not angry at the downvotes but damn am I disappointed. You’d think “fuck the people genociding others and fuck the people taking hostages” would be an uncontroversial position, but here we are.

NoneOfUrBusiness, (edited )

But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no “good guy” or “right side” among the war combatants. It’s awful people fighting awful people.

Edit: Turns out I forgot to actually write the comment so here goes:

Hamas aren't good people, but the idea they're even comparable to the IDF is just wrong. Hamas at least has a cause they're fighting for, and have a real, valid reason for taking hostages (namely that without hostages post-war Gaza is fucked) (not saying they're allowed to abuse them that's just fucked up). And have the basic decency not to shoot children.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Natives scalped Americans killing them. ANC killed civilians during their fight against Apartheid.

Don’t look up what the Haitians did for their freedom.

The illusion that these people fought their oppressors without committing their own war crimes is some Hollywood shit.

assassin_aragorn,

Killing people actively attacking you and murdering slaveowners is a far cry from kidnapping and raping civilians. I also would not say Hamas is a liberation group exactly, considering how they suppress any Palestinian dissent and steal charity meant for the Palestinian people.

A war crime is a war crime. The whole reason I make a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people is because the latter aren’t raping captives. The vast majority just want to live in peace.

Violent rebellion against oppressors is completely justified. Violence against civilians is not. Think about this woman in the article for instance. Would you consider it acceptable if she killed innocent Palestinians in the process of taking revenge on her former captors? What then about the family of the dead innocent Palestinians?

The IDF is absolutely worse. Let me make that clear. And I’m not terribly troubled by Hamas fighting them. Let the two of them wipe each other out. What bothers me is when the IDF kills innocent people in the process, and Hamas tortures innocent people in the process. Neither side’s sins justify the other’s.

assassin_aragorn,

I agree that the IDF is far worse, and it’s not my intent to say they’re the same as Hamas. I’m just saying both are bad, even if one is clearly worse.

But I also wouldn’t say Hamas has a cause worth fighting for exactly. They aren’t a Palestinian liberation army of freedom fighters. Their leaders are a bunch of rich fucks in the UAE and they expressly wanted active violence to start once more. They hoard supplies and steal charity meant for Palestinians. And they brutally suppress any Palestinian protest to their rule.

They still aren’t as bad as the IDF, but they’re not a group worth championing.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

They're everything you said, and also freedom fighters, at least at the present stage. They have the goal of a Palestine free from Israel occupation and aggression and take real action to make that happen. That's pretty much what the bar for being a freedom fighter is, and doesn't preclude them from being bad people otherwise.

and they expressly wanted active violence to start once more.

TBF in the case of Palestine active violence is the only realistic path to peace. Not via a military victory, but to gather the international community's attention and lose Israel international support. The status quo where Israel one-sidedly blockades and airstrikes Gaza isn't a desirable situation for Palestinians, because it's become normal. It doesn't make the news, spread the Palestinian cause or threaten presidents' reelection campaigns. You'll see this in the fact that while Gaza tends to take the forefront in news coverage of the conflict, the West Bank usually takes a backseat and even now is covered as an accessory to the situation in Gaza, because the West Bank doesn't have much active violence.

What I wanna say is: They want active violence because it works. There's no path to peace without violence when the other side is a country like Israel. The IRA, ANC and Civil Rights Movement (where what pushed the CRA over the edge was riots following MLK's death), among others, have thoroughly proven this.

assassin_aragorn,

Violence works, but it needs to be correctly directed and well thought out. No group is able to succeed without allies. In all the cases you mentioned, the groups did not succeed because they conquered the ruling authority, but because the situation created a tent of allies, perhaps reluctantly, who also worked towards getting the injustice to stop.

Peaceful, if annoying, protest against civilians. Violent protest against authority. And if there’s going to be hostages, you treat them as kindly and favorably as you can. Hamas would be in a far superior negotiating position if the released hostages were saying that they were treated kindly and cared for, they just weren’t allowed to leave. It would create a sharp dichotomy among the Israel’s where the government allowed hostages to be taken, but the actual kidnappers treated them better than the government.

I confess, this topic is a conundrum to me. I’m conflict avoidant when it comes to irl issues, so you can imagine I’m a strong proponent of non confrontational methods and I believe they work. The issue of Palestine and Israel is one that really strains that worldview. Sometimes violence is necessary when an aggressor speaks no other language. But does that mean bystanders have to get hurt too? I really want the answer to be no. Maybe it’s just sad idealism on my part, I don’t know. I don’t want to have to believe that innocent people need to die for a greater good.

Krono,

Hamas would be in a far superior negotiating position if the released hostages were saying that they were treated kindly and cared for

You should read the accounts of released hostages then, many of them have publically stated they were treated kindly.

This horrific recounting of captivity and rape is an outlier.

assassin_aragorn,

I’m legitimately glad to hear that. Do you mind linking an article about that?

brain_in_a_box,

the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: “theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron”

If you were alive during WW2, you’d be both-sidesing the holocaust.

assassin_aragorn,

Do you think civilian casualties, looting, and rape conducted by the Allies is excusable?

There is very clearly a worse side. The IDF is unequivocally worse and committing genocide. They have caused several degrees of magnitude more people to suffer. That does not mean however that Hamas hasn’t caused people to suffer either. Condemning all violent acts doesn’t mean we’re saying both sides are the same. You can acknowledge fault in two groups simultaneously, and pursue and peace and justice for both of their victims.

fastandcurious,
@fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

Reason this is controversial is because hamas is literally the same thing as IDF, bibi funded it and that much genocide also radicalized a shit ton of people, hamas is an asset of Israel, they shouldn’t be equated to palestine in anyway

This exact story will now be used to justify all the war crimes Israel has been doing, when hamas does something, Israel should be the one held accountable, not Palestine, there are no ‘two sides’, its only one side continuously killing the innocent

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas is not the same as israel. The difference in civilian and especially child casualties says enough.

Israel is far far worse than Hamas.

fastandcurious,
@fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t mean same in that sense, same as in that they are literally the same thing, kinda like different companies operating under one larger one (Netanyahu)

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Netanyahu funded them because he considered them convenient at the time. Just like how America funded the Taliban and other groups that aligned with their interests.

And as usual with these groups, their funder loses control over them when they grow to big and it backfires.

fastandcurious,
@fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

it backfires

Highly doubt that, they might not have control anymore but Hamas certainly did made the job a lot easier for netanyahu

Edit: My analogy was a bit dumb tho, but that doesn’t change the fact that hamas is an asset to Israel, and shouldn’t be lumped with Palestinians or be used make an argument that ‘both sides are bad’, there is only one side bulldozing the other

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I don't think Hamas is an asset to Israel. In the 90s, maybe 00s sure, but that hasn't been the case for a good while. Hamas and other Palestinian armed resistance are the reason Israel keeps losing international support. It's more obvious now, but this has been the case for a while now; the scale of destruction Israel causes in Gaza inevitably makes the news, and every time that happens Israel loses just a little bit of popular support in the West. The state of support for Israel we're seeing now isn't just because of the unprecedented scale of Israel's atrocities, but also because even on October 7th there was a significant number of people who knew that Israel is up to no good due to their repeated "escapades" in Gaza. This is why organizations like Amnesty International consider Israel an Apartheid state.

Meanwhile look at the West Bank; they're ruled under brutal military law, held up in checkpoints and subjected to horrific levels of abuse and humiliation (including being forced to strip naked so they be "examined"), are repeatedly attacked by the IDF for reason or no reason and to top it off they're being driven from their homes every day, but how often do they make the news? Even now the situation in the West Bank is being reported on as an accessory to the Gaza "war".

What I wanna say is: Hamas is a very big part of the reason Israel is losing international support, and since international support is their lifeline this is really bad for them. If Hamas and other such organizations didn't exist and Gaza was like the West Bank the Palestinian cause would be in a much worse place now (though whether that's worth the lives being lost is another story).

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Currently israel is losing all global rep. Their facade of the moral army has fallen and they are seen for the Genocidal maniacs they are. Not a massively successful land grab so far.

The downfall is always arrogance. They boast groups that fight their enemies like Hamas to divide and conquer. But then the Hamas grows so big that they beat all other groups. And then they start fighting israel.

assassin_aragorn,

Yeah what I was trying to say is that there’s effectively three sides. Hamas, IDF, and the civilians. The first two are bad, but not the third, even though the third is the one suffering, mostly in Palestine.

assassin_aragorn,

No disagreement here really. This doesn’t justify Israel’s war crimes at all. Whether Hamas is effectively the same as the IDF or not, they’re a bunch of radicalized shitheads who do not in any way represent the Palestinians. They’re closer to ruling dictators than they are champions of the people.

fastandcurious,
@fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

You are right, but when you make the both sides bad argument, the pro genocide have an excuse ‘Oh hamas bad as well’ but the thing is the very reason hamas exists is because of Israel, and then according to me alteast Israel should be held equally accountable

assassin_aragorn,

Something I’ve recently realized is that I can and should do more to call out the genocide proponents. I generally don’t engage with them because there’s no intelligent discussion to be had there, and there’s a lot more interesting and nuanced things to talk about with people who agree this is a genocide that needs to stop.

But, that does give the illusion that the genocide proponents aren’t being challenged, and that instead of harshly criticizing Israel I’m just saying “both sides bad”. That’s something I’m going to try and improve on, because I need to make it crystal clear that Hamas’ actions are not even remotely an excuse for the IDF to be genocidal.

Kusimulkku,

Well out of all takes, this certainly is one

frostmore,

i noticed most lemmey users here exhibit the same kind of behaviour before the exodus from reddit.

very left leaning and wouldn’t hesitate to employ cancel culture if facts don’t fit their narratives.

at least there are sane usera like yourself have clearly drawn the line that condemning hamas doesn’t equate condemning the palestinians.

evidence have shown,if you condemn hamas,somehow or rather that’s Israel’s fault and anyone who does it is dehumanising palestinans,never mind the fact that there were palestinians celebrating the death of innocents and giving out sweets to children.

assassin_aragorn,

never mind the fact that there were palestinians celebrating the death of innocents and giving out sweets to children.

This is incorrect. Hamas told people that a prison was liberated, and that’s why they were celebrating. They had no idea that Hamas had killed innocent people like that.

Think about it – where does information in Gaza come from? A lot of it is coming from Hamas itself. They’re going to make themselves look good and lie about what’s actually going on.

frostmore,

this is the first i am hearing if this.

mind sharing where you got that info from??

assassin_aragorn,

Yep, here you go.

nytimes.com/…/israelis-palestinians-peace-forum.h…

It’s a really good article in general, it does a great job of highlighting the disconnect in communication and how Israel and Hamas are manipulating the news.

frostmore,

thank you!

phoenixz,

Porque no los dos?

Both Hamas and the Israeli government have shown to be horrible and not working for the betterment of their people. Let’s get rid of both, jail / shoot them, they deserve either, and then have both the Israeli and Palestinians elect new leaders

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Removed, advocating violence.

qdJzXuisAndVQb2,

Lol

nammi,

Well the problem is one is the occupier and the one is the occupied. And people talk as if Hamas is the Palestinians problem and that it all started October 7th.

Treat people and respect them as humans, don’t put them in open-air prisons, and divide people into an apartheid system, then maybe you won’t have any terrorist attacks and/or rapes.

Kusimulkku,

Sounds like victim blaming

assassin_aragorn,

Hamas is not the same thing as Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians want peace and aren’t kidnapping and torturing Israelis.

I completely agree that the Palestinians are being appallingly treated and experiencing apartheid. But they haven’t turned to violence. Hamas would like to claim they’re freedom fighters, but they stockpile supplies for themselves and steal charity meant for the people. They aren’t the good guys here. The good guys are the ones being bombed and massacred.

nammi,

Hamas was elected to government in Gaza in one of the few elections the occupier has allowed, and there are plenty of parts of Hamas which is not military, the Palestinians want freedom and peace, and resistance against the occupation is also fighting, or politics, be it PLO or Hamas.

FreudianCafe,

NYT is such an serious outlet. They NEVER lied about things. They never lied about Gaddafi, Hussein, Assad, Putin, WMDs, war on terror, war on drugs, China, Venezuela, Nicarágua, México, Jamaica, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Julian Assange, Snowden. Never!

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

So much for "believe victims".

nac82,

We also don’t call Nazis victims when they face retaliation for their crimes against humanity either.

assassin_aragorn,

We also generally don’t condone retaliation against civilians for the actions of the government. We didn’t punish all Germans for what the Nazis did. Let’s not punish civilians for what Israel’s doing.

Otherwise? You’re closer to those Nazis than not.

nac82, (edited )

Civilians don’t typically hang out in occupied territory.

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

If you believe that the murder of all Israelis is just, come out and actually say it. Don't be shy now.

nac82,

I hope for peace and justice for every palestenian displaced from their homes by the zionist nazi genocide.

Not everybody is pro genocide like you nazis.

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

Oh, come on now. And what, exactly, do you want to happen the evil Zionists?

Sure, it'd be nice if there was a cute kumbaya moment, but absent that, if Israelis have no desire to leave, what do you want to happen to them?

nac82,

The implication of your proposition is that only genocide can decide this.

Your assumption is ludicrous and fascist. It says everything that needs to be said about your beliefs. By assuming only bloodshed is the solution, you remove the responsibility for you to face the genocide you are supporting.

I would have a criminal investigation and follow-up to this genocide similar to the Nuremberg Trials.

I want the people responsible locked up for life, and I want freedom for the people of Palestine.

So how about you? Can you honestly answer what exactly you want out of this?

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

Okay, so who are the people responsible? A handful of leaders? Most of the original Zionists have been dead for a long time. Is it literally every single Israeli? What exactly does this freedom and justice look like? I don't think locking up Netanyahu and Ben Gvir would exactly satisfy the Palestinian cause, so ultimately, you have the situation of millions of Israelis, most of which were born there, who do not want to leave and will only do so by force.

So, what do you want? The forced removal of all Israelis? That's not an inconsistent position given your general perspective, but if that's the case, come out and actually say it.

You've said a lot of nice abstract things about wanting freedom and justice, and very little actual concrete info about the situation on the ground.

nac82,

Gish gallop.

You made an absolute out of genocide and then kited right past the fact your original stance was an absolute acceptance of genocide despite the obvious other answers.

You will not stop clawing to justify the genocide, I don’t care to continue debating genocidal nazis.

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

You're the one who seems to be incapable of actually stating a concrete desire that isn't the violent removal or murder of all Israeli citizens, but by all means, tell me how I'm the genocidal one.

assassin_aragorn,

It’s sadly ironic that these people who go “you don’t think killing all of them is justified? You’re just a genocidal Nazi yourself!” don’t realize they’re acting the exact same way as Netanyahu and the IDF. If you don’t support their absolutist violence, you’re an antisemite who wants Hamas to kill all Israelis.

They’ll make all sorts of excuses, but at the end of the day, they use the exact same underlying ideology/argument that is being used to justify genocide.

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

It's just amusing that these people know that they can't openly say "I think all Israelis should be either removed or murdered", so they'll just heavily imply it without having the balls to actually own up to their position.

Speaking as someone who would not at all be upset to see a rocket happen to fall on Netanyahu and Ben Gvir.

assassin_aragorn,

It’s fairly obvious who’s a bad actor and who actually wants peace. I mean, if someone says “it’s wrong to kill children, but”, that tells you everything you need to know.

Frankly, it’s the same behavior as conservatives. They look at the people affected and then decide how they feel about the act. They don’t universally condemn the act.

assassin_aragorn,

Is an Israeli child born in Tel Aviv a genocidal Nazi? Is it okay if they’re captured by Hamas?

I really hope your response is an unequivocal no. We don’t kill people for the sins of their fathers. We can expect them to make things right and work towards equity and peace, but they shouldn’t be punished.

Part of the issue with this conflict is how long Israel has now existed and is established. There are people who have nothing to do with the Zionists. They shouldn’t be punished for what the Zionists have done and are doing. There will never be peace if you continue to kill people for what their ancestors did.

nac82,

How many Israeli children starved to death yesterday?

Nazis had children too and didn’t justify the actions of the Nazis.

assassin_aragorn,

Would it be justified to bomb the homes of the Nazis to kill them if it also meant killing their children?

nac82,

I dont think I have to answer that to say it is wrong to starve children to death.

assassin_aragorn,

What if it’s Nazis who are starved in the process? What if you’re starving an entire German city in WW2 to out the Nazis and kill them? Would you say the same thing?

Somehow, I think you’re going to deflect once again and call me a genocide apologist because I’m asking if you disavow violence against innocents in all circumstances. I suppose I’ll wait for that response before I say anything else.

assassin_aragorn,

Yeah they do? It’s how governments and groups try to legitimize their occupation and claims. It’s how the USSR operated in Eastern Europe with Russification.

That does not make it acceptable to kill the civilians. Russian citizens in Crimea are not enemy combatants. They can be evicted if they won’t peacefully integrate with the rightful owning country, but they shouldn’t be raped or killed.

Note that this is very different from the Israeli settlers. They exist in a grey area because they are committing violence against the Palestinians there and generally being awful shitheads and active colonizers.

nac82,

Yea, if an invading force is slaughtering people to conquer your home, they are no longer just civilians. They are active combatants.

assassin_aragorn,

Do you not see any distinction between the actual military forces invading and slaughtering your people versus civilians who are living nearby?

nac82,

I’m stating the difference between an invader and a civilian distinctly.

Your inability to address what I’ve said isn’t my problem.

assassin_aragorn,

You’re being clear as mud.

Let me just ask unequivocally – do you think every Israeli person, regardless of where they live in the country, is an invader and a legitimate target?

Kusimulkku,

I guarantee some of these deniers were saying “believe all women” or “believe all victims” before.

Paddzr,

Believe all unless they’re Israeli. As said by many comments here…

If Gaza goes on a massive offensive and bombs the shit out of Israel, these people will celebrate it and claim they deserve it.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Okay I see what you mean but while I'd like them to be lying as much as the next person this one is pretty damning.

FreudianCafe,

True. This time they are not doing war propaganda. Because they never do

lettruthout,

Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but this whole conflict wouldn’t be happening if some crazy religious people hadn’t stolen lots of land in the first place, and then persecuted the remaining inhabitants.

ModsSuckMyFeetAndAss,

Sorry what?

JimboDHimbo,

They are saying that if the nation of Israel was not established on pre-occupied land by the OG colonizers (UK & US) for the Jewish folks, we as a planet would not be dealing with all of this messed up stuff.

At least, that’s how I interpreted their comment.

gravitas_deficiency, (edited )

The “crazy religious people” and “who the land belongs to” switches around a lot depending on what year you pick as a baseline - you’re gonna have to be more specific.

JackGreenEarth,

Why would you pick any year besides the one which had original people living there as a baseline? I thought they must have been referring to the millenia long holy war over the land, started when the Jews first conquered the land from its previous inhabitants millenia ago. Then the Muslims came and settled there in recent history, and then the Jews tried to take it back. And now both sides are fighting for all of it. (I wouldn’t say ‘crazy’, but definitely mislead) religious people are the cause of the conflict, on both sides.

NoneOfUrBusiness, (edited )

I thought they must have been referring to the millenia long holy war over the land, started when the Jews first conquered the land from its previous inhabitants millenia ago. Then the Muslims came and settled there in recent history, and then the Jews tried to take it bac

What millennia long holy war? Jews conquered large parts of Palestine (not all of it AFAIK), settled there, then (omitting some stuff) the Romans kicked many of them out of there. Then Muslims conquered the region, and that ended that. While some Muslims settled in Palestine (like they did in their other territories) the idea that the original inhabitants are gone and the people living in Palestine now are descended from Arabs is a myth.

Edit: The current conflict started in 1917 and any attempt to make it look more complex by tying it to the Jews' debacle with the Romans is either ignorant or made in bad faith to both sides the conflict.

BraveSirZaphod,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

Jews conquered large parts of Palestine (not all of it AFAIK)

This isn't really true to the historical record, not that it's significantly relevant to the modern conflict. Contrary to the Biblical Exodus account, from what the archeological and linguistic record seems to show, a unique Jewish culture seems to organically emerge from a particular group of Canaanites who were not otherwise previously distinct from any of their neighbors. There certainly was no mass migration and conquest from Egypt. Over time, the Jews/Israelites developed a distinct cultural identity, possibly with some amount of external influence, and later developed individual minor kingdoms before being subjugated by the Egyptian New Kingdom, the Assyrians (thus the Lost Tribes of Israel), the Babylonians (thus the first Exile and the destruction of the first Temple), the Persians (who returned the previously exiled Jews), Alexander the Great, and lastly the Romans, who destroyed the Second Temple and began the Diaspora.

Again though, none of this should really be seen as being particularly relevant to the modern issue any more than Roman territorial claims are to the modern borders of Italy.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Again though, none of this should really be seen as being particularly relevant to the modern issue any more than Roman territorial claims are to the modern borders of Italy.

True enough, but it helps when even the nonsense argument is false.

matjoeman,

the idea that the original inhabitants are gone and the people living in Palestine now are descended from Arabs is a myth.

Anywhere I can read more about this?

NoneOfUrBusiness,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians

Sentrovasi,

Excuse me? Who are the original people in your book and which year is the baseline?

I'm someone who doesn't have a huge stake in either side and still this take astounds me.

stonedemoman,

Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but the land wasn’t stolen and the persecution was perpetuated mutually.

moe93,
@moe93@lemmy.ml avatar

Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but the land *was stolen. Lay off Fox and Friends for a bit.

stonedemoman,

Incorrect, the country was sanctioned by the region’s protectorate and land was procured legally through the sale of deeds. The first war started with “Palestinians” besieging Jerusalem. Go ahead and do more research than reading social media.

nac82,

Now, write an individual article for each child starved to death or bombed by Israel. I can’t muster the energy to care about a about a single rape in the middle of a genocide.

We have rape kits in Texas that have gone untested for over a decade. If rape was important to the people enacting justice, we have a long list to get through before we can start worrying about rapes in warzones.

But justice isn’t the intent behind articles like this. They want to justify the genocide with individual crimes.

sailingbythelee,

That’s bullshit. There are many news articles literally every single day about the civilians killed in Gaza. Meanwhile, on Lemmy, you have people still denying that Hamas sexually tortured women captured on October 7. Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative.

In my opinion, there is a huge difference between civilian collateral damage during a military operation and the use of rape as a weapon of war. We xan argue about how much force Israel is using and whether X amount of collateral damage is acceptable. But gratuitously raping people has no legitimate purpose, military or otherwise. It serves to sow terror and incite retaliation, which is why Hamas did it.

JackGreenEarth,

Neither rape nor civilian murder, or ‘collateral damage’ as you put it, is tolerable. But minimising the actual deaths and lifelong physical casualties, rather than just rape, of hundreds of people to just ‘collateral damage’ as though you would react in the exact same way if Hamas was bombing Israeli hospitals and schools, is [insert disparaging word here].

sailingbythelee,

My point is that bombing a building that you believe contains soldiers sometimes also causes civilian deaths. We can debate whether sufficient care was taken, but the justification is that the army believes that enemy soldiers were present. Same with cutting off aid shipments. We can debate whether Israel has gone too far in restricting humanitarian aid, but the justification is that Israel doesn’t want supplies diverted for use by Hamas. What exactly is the justification for raping people?

nac82,

Starving children is not a military operation.

You’re full of shit.

sailingbythelee,

Nope. As I said in my other comment, cutting off aid to Gaza in order to starve out the militants hiding in the civilian population is a military operation that is at least plausibly justifiable. And I acknowledge the argument that Israel has taken it too far.

But what is your justification for raping people? What sort of military operation is that, exactly?

mute,

By your twisted and fucked up logic, raping people is a justifiable military operation: you rape enough people some of them ought to be military personnel and it causes irreparable harm that may dissuade them to continue fighting.

Rape, civilian casualties, killing children….all of them are unacceptable. Now fuck off you nazi piece of shit.

sailingbythelee,

You really went there? Ouch. Get help.

Passerby6497, (edited )

Man, ghouls will go to any extent to justify starving children and/or war crimes when the right people are doing it.

assassin_aragorn,

It is not justifiable at all! You don’t bomb a town because there’s a couple terrorists living there! Collective punishment is absolutely wrong.

Starving people to out militants is unconscionable. And, doesn’t exactly work either. Hamas has stockpiled supplies. The civilians haven’t. And if you kill all the civilians to find the militants, you’ve become just as much of a monster as the militants, if not even worse.

sailingbythelee,

I guess the civilians could out the militants themselves, no? Then the IDF could take out the militants with fewer civilian casualties.

It’s easy to criticize from your armchair, but what is your solution to the ancient problem of militants who commit heinous acts and then hide among the civilian population? If you don’t have a realistic alternative, then complaining about civilian casualties is just virtue signaling. Lots of people on here have obviously never had to make a hard call to accomplish a mission. The IDF is using conventional military and siege tactics, while Hamas is using human shields and terrorist tactics. Civilians lose either way. That’s war. At the end of the day, however, I would rather see Israel win, not Hamas.

Also, when people say “but what about the children”, it sounds just as disingenuous as when conservatives say it. You should remember that Hamas and their ilk are not your friends, nor are they liberal or progressive or Marxist. They are brainwashed religious zealots who would happily torture and kill you if they could.

assassin_aragorn,

I have no love for Hamas and I want to see them eradicated.

You know what my solution is? Go in with boots on the ground and evacuate civilians wherever there’s going to be a military operation. Make it a point to protect civilians and help them. Root out the militants where you can, evacuate civilians, and kill them. If there’s a hospital where militants are hiding, declare it a truce zone and embed yourself in the hospital by helping doctors and delivering aid. Don’t initiate any confrontation, and respect the truce. Your presence there prevents them from acting. Don’t bomb the place.

It would mean more military casualties, but that’s the price paid for being the good guys. We can’t indiscriminately bomb the enemy and kill scores of innocent people. That doesn’t help you win the war anyway.

The IDF is no closer to their poorly defined victory than they were months ago. All they have to show for is a whole lot of dead civilians, and hostages they killed themselves.

sailingbythelee,

In fact, you are describing what most of the IDF operation has been. The most dramatic video makes the news. But look at the numbers instead of the emotional propaganda.

2.3 million people in Gaza. Almost 5 months of modern war in one of the mostly densely packed places on earth. 32,500 Palestinian deaths, including Hamas militants since the Hamas government doesn’t count civilians and militants separately. That is 1.4% of the population. It is obvious that the IDF isn’t just mowing down civilians or bombing them indiscrimately. All deaths are bad, yes, but 1.4% deaths is hardly a program of indiscrimate civilian annihilation. Should it be fewer? Sure, I’ll give you that. But do you have the expertise to judge whether 1.4% mortality is good or bad, given the mission to root out Hamas? What should it be, realistically? How the hell would a couple of keyboard warriors like us know? Most people are just reacting to the tragedy, not really thinking about the logistics of carrying out the IDF mission. And make no mistake: murderous groups like Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah, the Taliban, the Houthis, and Iran are a menace to be destroyed. They are the enemy of civilization and have vowed to eradicate Israel and the Jews from the river to the sea. If the militants hide among the population, it will always cost civilian casualties to root them out. There could be fewer with even more restraint from the military, but collateral damage will never be zero as long as militants use human shields.

stonedemoman,

Unintended casualties is an unavoidable side effect of urban combat. Use your brain.

Passerby6497,

deleted_by_author

    •
    stonedemoman,

    Roof knocking, phone calls to the building, and leaflets. Did you know that all three of these warning operations are conducted before the IDF drop a bomb? It’s the highest standard in history. If you think these are intended casualties you’re clearly brainwashed.

    Passerby6497,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    stonedemoman, (edited )

    Yes, it is absolutely the highest standard of military forewarning and you’ve failed to provide anything that confirms otherwise (and you will never be able to). No amount of head-empty baby rage is going to change reality.

    Passerby6497,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    stonedemoman,

    If you want to strawman my argument and put words in my mouth, you can go infect some other comment thread with your smooth brain. The concept of genocide requires more criteria than just “the death of innocents”. Get a clue.

    stonedemoman,

    Downvote me, hate me, and quietly move on. The language of those that can’t face the cognitive dissonance of a contradictory, inarguable fact.

    nac82,

    We call this, projection.

    You can’t come to terms with the hate and slaughter you support, so you project your guilt to others.

    stonedemoman,

    I’m not hearing a counterpoint.

    nac82,

    You don’t counter coping techniques. It’s not a logical stance and will not be countered by logic.

    stonedemoman,

    coping techniques

    What an ironic statement. Unless you have some kind of evidence to refute my original statement your comments are going to be a pathetic display of zero self-awareness, but keep at it if you must.

    nac82,

    civilian collateral damage

    Nazis can fuck off.

    This is exactly what I’m calling out, using individual crimes to justify genocide.

    You won’t even accurately address the crimes because they are so heinous.

    We are talking about genocide. Starving children is in no way a military operation so you can suck that lie back up your ass.

    sailingbythelee,

    Cutting off aid to Gaza in order to starve out the militants hiding in the civilian population is at least a plausible justification. Again, we can debate whether Israel has taken it too far, but using siege tactics doesn’t make someone a Nazi. Nice try.

    But what is your justification for raping people?

    mute,

    By your twisted and fucked up logic, raping people is a justifiable military operation: you rape enough people some of them ought to be military personnel and it causes irreparable harm that may dissuade them to continue fighting.

    Rape, civilian casualties, killing children….all of them are unacceptable. Now fuck off you nazi piece of shit.

    sailingbythelee,

    You mad, bro?

    nac82,

    You’re still a nazi bro?

    NoneOfUrBusiness,

    Uh... What Israel is doing is 100%, undebatable a war crime. As occupiers they have a responsibility under international law to provide food and other life necessities to the people of Gaza. That doesn't change with the addition of an insurgency.

    sailingbythelee,

    Whatever. The point of the article is that Hamas committed many acts of rape and torture on Oct 7. You guys don’t like that narrative so you are trying to draw me off topic by focusing on Israel’s crimes and making a false equivalence between overzealous military tactics and rape-happy terrorists. These are the kind of people that Hamas recruits. Think about it. Hamas is the enemy of civilization, not your friendly neighbourhood Starbucks revolutionary.

    NoneOfUrBusiness,

    The point of the article is that Hamas committed many acts of rape and torture on Oct 7. You guys don’t like that narrative so you are trying to draw me off topic by focusing on Israel’s crimes and making a false equivalence between overzealous military tactics and rape-happy terrorists.

    I won't engage with you anymore, but at least Hamas has the basic decency to not shoot children. Israel sure as hell doesn't.

    Passerby6497,

    Whatever. The point of the article argument I’m ignoring is that Hamas Israel committed many acts of rape and torture on genocide since Oct 7. You guys don’t like that narrative so you are trying to draw me off topic by focusing on Israel’s crimes a single instance of rape and making a false equivalence between overzealous genocidal military tactics and alleged rape-happy terrorists (with plenty of refuted accusations). These are the kind of people that Hamas Israel recruits. Think about it. Hamas Israel is the enemy of civilization, not your friendly neighbourhood Starbucks revolutionary

    Fixed your bad argument for you.

    buddascrayon,

    The point is that it is not collateral damage. The murdering of the civilian Arab population is the point of the IDF operations in Gaza.

    There isn’t a single rational person here who would argue that what Hamas has done and is doing is not horrifying and awful. But Hamas is exactly who Netanyahu wanted as the adversary in Gaza. He has set this stage very carefully in order to bring about the exact scenario that is being played out in Israel and Gaza right now.

    sailingbythelee,

    You make a great point about Netanyahu. He’s a terrible person. But he didn’t start Hamas or write their charter for them, nor did he create the Iranian theocracy or force them to create and support terrorist proxy groups. Netanyahu is an opportunist. He took advantage of an existing situation and made it worse.

    Also, unfortunately, there are plenty of people on Lemmy who do rationalize Hamas’s actions as a justified “lashing out” by the victims. I don’t buy that argument for a second. No society is entirely just and history certainly isn’t fair, but that doesn’t mean we should allow murder, rape, and torture as a response. The armchair revolutionaries on Lemmy disagree. What they don’t realize is that most real revolutions look less like George Washington crossing the Potomac or Ukraine’s Maidan revolution and more like Mao’s Cultural Revolution.

    anarchyrabbit,

    I don’t agree with this comment. Both of those acts are fucking awful. Anyone to be raped must be an awful experience and extremely traumatic. I understand that some who is raped are not dead, but still a vile act.

    brain_in_a_box,

    I don’t agree with this comment. Both of those acts are fucking awful.

    And yet we aren’t getting whole articles in the NYT about individual Palestinian victims of Israeli sexual assault, let alone the ones straight up murdered.

    nac82,

    If you truly believed this, you would be offended by the political use of rape to justify the genocide of children.

    You don’t want to engage what my comment actually said, the fact that a single rape in the face of genocide does not an article make.

    My comment was about the focus on this crime as an individual act justifying genocide and you want to refocus back to the singular act while not really addressing the editorializing of NYT.

    You are playing the game the genocidal people want you to play instead of engaging this propoganda meaningfully.

    buddascrayon,

    You should read that comment again. They aren’t arguing that rape is not a vile act. They are saying that the people who are using this woman’s horrifying experience as propaganda to justify murdering tens of thousands of people don’t actually care about her suffering, they only care about pushing their agenda of Arab extermination. It is literally what the Nazis in Germany did to the Jews 80 years ago.

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