Israel says Hamas weaponised rape. Does the evidence add up?

The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.

Meanwhile, the political establishment has opened a fresh battle with the UN over what the Patten report didn’t say: that sexual violence was beyond reasonable doubt, systematic, widespread and ordered and perpetrated by Hamas. Israeli advocates for the female survivors are now warning that the country’s refusal to co-operate with a full and legal investigation, which the carefully worded report was not, threatens the prospect of ever finding out the full truth about the sexual violence of October 7 and delivering justice for its victims.

It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one: that mandate could only be fulfilled by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which Israel has refused to work with since its inception. She hoped that would change.

Patten made it clear there was sufficient evidence of acts of sexual violence to merit full and proper investigation and expressed her shock at the brutality of the violence. The report also confirmed Israeli authorities were unable to provide much of the evidence that political leaders had insisted existed. In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

Archive link

HelixDab2,

FWIW, The Times is a center-right publication that’s somewhat more factually accurate in their reporting than the New York Times is. So it’s kind of a big deal for them to admit that there just isn’t any evidence other than extremely suspicious claims about any widespread, systematic sexual violence.

SulaymanF,

Reddit was in a frenzy over the claim on October 7 itself. The major basis behind it was a video of an Israeli prisoner with what appeared to be blood on the back of her pants. The major worldnews sub banned anyone who questioned the claim. Weeks later it turned out that the blood on her bottom was because she had cut her ankle and was sitting or kneeling in the back of the truck and got it on her pants, not that she had been raped like many assumed.

speaker_hat,

Pramila Patten, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict stated that:

“It was a catalogue of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing, torture and other horrors,” including sexual violence.

press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one:

Not sure why you keep citing a report that has no legal base. The only thing Patten concludes is that there is grounds to do a real investigation.

Who keeps blocking the real UN rape investigations again? Oh right, israel

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

The only thing Patten concludes is

that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations" and that "With respect to hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing"

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Why does israel keep blocking the UN investigation?

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Thread here

Etterra,

The overwhelming majority of all armies of all time have weaponized rape. As I understand it Israel is doing the same damned thing. There are no good guys in this fucking war, only monsters and victims.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Israel is doing it. Hamas is not doing it.

Belastend,

No, they are just causing genital mutilation and genital wounds consistent with rape but since we have no video proof, you can’t say they used rape in a systematic way. They have sexually abused victim or caused immense damage to their genitals, that is confirmed by the very report that also denies systemic rape.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

they are just causing genital mutilation and genital wounds consistent with rape

Having your pelsvis broken because a grenade exploded is not what most people associate with rape. Except ZAKA of course. I take it you are citing their expert analysis? Let’s see what the article has to say about it

Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.

Among the first responders on October 7 was Zaka, an ultra-orthodox volunteer force. Zaka members are not trained in forensics, nor were they directed to do any more than retrieve remains from what was still an active battle zone. The decision to send them in has come under heavy assault in the Israeli media, including from military officers who believe if they had been deployed, forensics might have been preserved.

Orit Sulitzeanu, the executive director of ARCCI, notes the volunteers’ lack of familiarity with the women’s bodies they were finding and their tendency to focus on injuries they believed pointed to sexual violence, such as smashed pelvises and gunshot wounds to sex organs, ignoring other injuries that muddied the picture.

“They are all religious guys; most of them are ultra-religious. They never saw a woman except their wife,” Sulitzeanu says. “So to see all these bodies, how did they deal with that?”

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

“They are all religious guys; most of them are ultra-religious. They never saw a woman except their wife,” Sulitzeanu says. “So to see all these bodies, how did they deal with that?”

From the report, II(b):

"The mission team was led by the SRSG-SVC with the support of a technical team comprised of nine staff members with relevant expertise drawn from the United Nations system. The technical team included a principal human rights officer that acted as its head; a police expert in criminal investigation; a judicial affairs officer; two sexual and gender-based violence investigators skilled in the safe and ethical interviewing of survivors/victims and witnesses of sexual violence crimes; a forensic pathologist; a digital and open-source information analyst; and two political affairs officers. For certain segments of the visit, the mission team was accompanied by a public information officer. Logistical and security support for the mission was provided by the UN Country Team based in Jerusalem."

Actually, part of the report dealt with debunking not only Israeli government lies which I already talked about, but also some conclusions which were drawn potentially in perfectly good faith by earlier investigators who weren't experts. Maybe some of those people were ultra-religious guys who had never seen anyone but their wives naked, or maybe not, but it doesn't really have bearing on "debunking" the report. As far as I know.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Those israeli government lies were already debunked. The UN report was not needed as journalists found that the mentioned corpses did not exist.

The only new information from the UN report was that israel did not have the video, photo and forensic evidence they claimed to have.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Hamas is not doing it.

We should send a team of expert investigators to assess forensic evidence, conduct interviews all around, and also visit with Palestinian representatives to see what they have to say about it, so that we can assess whether this is objectively true

Oh wait

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

We should send a team of expert investigators to assess forensic evidence

Yes we should. Who is blocking said team of expert investigators again, remind me?

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Thread here

arymandias,

They should have asked Annalena Baerbock she has seen the videos.

Out of curiosity, if this is ever legally recognized as a genocide, is there anything human-rights law or international law says about people knowingly spreading lies in support of it?

Edit: And will she be just as vigilant about Israel systematically raping prisoners as a form of torture (something for which there actually exists multiple sources).

Linkerbaan, (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What a video in that article

Journalist: Can you confirm that you have seen video evidence of rape? The israeli government claims there is none

German official: are you saying that you don’t believe the government of israel?! Shame on you!

Journalist: No you said you saw footage of it and the israeli government says it does not exist

German official: Rape denier! Rape denier!

Yep that sums it up

arymandias,

I only read the article before, but Christ that video is shocking. He just intensionally twists the question three times, and then accuses the journalist of not doing his job for only citing two sources (the fucking Israeli government and the UN). Plus the moderator constantly interrupting the journalists while the government is just obviously lying. Staatsräson in action.

theonyltruemupf,

I can’t speak for that specific article but nachdenkseiten.de is usually full of shit. They spread misinformation and are nazi apologists. Please be careful with your sources and try to verify information you read online.

phoneymouse,

Israel has been anally raping Palestinians with electric rods and electrocuting them to death.

Tenthrow,
@Tenthrow@lemmy.world avatar

Hey this comment is getting reported for misinformation. Can you link please provide a source for this information?

phoneymouse, (edited )

A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.

archive.is/pY54n

I hope you ban the people reporting misinformation for false reports.

SuddenDownpour,

To any zionist who’s found their way into this comments section. Do you think that Israeli soldiers and leadership should be judged for the sexual assault of Palestinians with the same severity as Hamas members who committed, allowed or promoted sexual violence against their captured prisoners? Who should conduct the appropriate investigation and trial?

UN experts demand investigation into claims Israeli forces killed, raped and sexually assaulted Palestinian women and girls

Palestinians ‘beaten and sexually assaulted’ at Israeli detention centres, UN report claims

Israel’s use of rape against Palestinian detainees from Gaza exposed

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Not a Zionist by any means, but happy to answer in case it's directed in my direction

Do you think that Israeli soldiers and leadership should be judged for the sexual assault of Palestinians with the same severity as Hamas members who committed, allowed or promoted sexual violence against their captured prisoners?

Yes. (Actually more severity for a couple of different reasons.)

This is the type of question that's super easy to answer. Yes, anyone on any side who is raping should be punished. That's, honestly, my whole point in getting all up in arms about "let's not worry about that rape because of which side is doing it" narratives like OP's.

Who should conduct the appropriate investigation and trial?

The ICC

SuddenDownpour,

in case it’s directed in my direction

I mean zionists specifically because I see some from time to time justifying the extreme damage Israel has committed against civilians, some making a lot of effort to paint Hamas as a bunch of barbarians to further support that position. I only remember seeing you in this thread, and from your posts in it, you don’t seem to be doing that.

That’s, honestly, my whole point in getting all up in arms about “let’s not worry about that rape because of which side is doing it” narratives like OP’s.

Bit off-topic in this comment chain (it would fit yours better) but: whenever I’ve seen someone or an organization pushing positions such as OP’s article, there are a few valid reasons:

  • Some media did rush to claim sexual violence far before they had any evidence of it, especially soon after the 7th of October, which should be scrutinized.
  • There are differences between: A) Sexual violence committed by an individual or a few, B) That violence being tolerated by their superiors, and C) That violence being supported by their superiors. This distinction is important, since a very large organization having monsters in its ranks isn’t statistically strange (and modern, well-run organizations make sure to punish those monsters and bringing them to one form of justice or another), but that organization not taking measures against those monsters or even promoting their behavior is far more serious.
  • Plenty of media has ignored and continues to ignore the previous differences, and now that there is evidence of A, they use it to claim C.
  • Those bad journalistic practices get used to promote violence against innocent Palestinians and support jingoistic horror.

Personally, I had no doubt that there would be monsters in Hamas who would abuse the prisoners in their captivity, but the organization itself has an interest in making sure that the prisoners who make it out alive say that they were treated humanely (as we’ve seen with some of them). Attacking civilians and taking them hostage is already really terrible to start with, but noting what’s being done out of logical political goals and what’s being done out of sheer sadism is important. If we compare Hamas with the Israeli government and army, we do currently already have evidence that the latter do at the very least tolerate abuse of Palestinian prisoners, apparently with gleeful support from much of Israel since they celebrate that violence by sharing it in social media.

Could there be people taking positions aesthetically close to mine who are, however, defending them in bad faith, as they just want to shield Hamas? There must be some, but the environment is heated enough that anyone who doesn’t take a nuanced enough position is going to be called out sooner than later. Although figuring out the most reasonable positions is far more important, in my view.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Some media did rush to claim sexual violence far before they had any evidence of it, especially soon after the 7th of October, which should be scrutinized.

The Israeli government made up some crazy imaginary shit that they had been victims of, because that's in their DNA at this point, and some people in the press believed them who should have known better. But also, there was a flood of victims of the attack who came back saying they had been raped. That infamous NYT story consists of a whole bunch of accurate information and then a couple made up stories from Israel's government, and for some reason everyone remembers it as all made up or a rush to judgement or whatever, when the main thrust of the article was true (as validated by the later in-depth UN investigation which found a shitload of evidence of systemic rape whether sanctioned or otherwise.)

There are differences between: A) Sexual violence committed by an individual or a few, B) That violence being tolerated by their superiors, and C) That violence being supported by their superiors. This distinction is important, since a very large organization having monsters in its ranks isn't statistically strange (and modern, well-run organizations make sure to punish those monsters and bringing them to one form of justice or another), but that organization not taking measures against those monsters or even promoting their behavior is far more serious.

I... more or less agree with this. I think you might be understating the scale of Hamas's sexual violence or the degree to which it's sanctioned by their leadership. But yes, Israel's in more of a position of power, and they're more organized about it; I agree. I honestly don't even want to compare the degree of cruelty involved on the two sides because what's the point; they're both horrible.

Personally, I had no doubt that there would be monsters in Hamas who would abuse the prisoners in their captivity, but the organization itself has an interest in making sure that the prisoners who make it out alive say that they were treated humanely (as we've seen with some of them). Attacking civilians and taking them hostage is already really terrible to start with, but noting what's being done out of logical political goals and what's being done out of sheer sadism is important.

I think you should read the UN report, if you have not. I'm not aware of any attempt at treating the prisoners, or deceased victims of the violence before they died, humanely. From the organization or the individuals. Do you have a source for this, like interviews with hostages where they said they were treated humanely, or something? What's in the UN report describes the exact opposite of that.

I wouldn't try to excuse Hamas just because their root cause is just. Israel specifically props up Hamas and funds them because they are the most violent and corrupt faction in Palestine, and they will do monstrous things which can then be used to "justify" Israel's crimes which it wanted to do anyway.

Although figuring out the most reasonable positions is far more important, in my view.

Honestly, like I say, to me it's not super complicated. Punish the guilty (which in large part means stop shielding Israel from prosecution for their crimes; certainly no one is making much of any attempt to shield Palestine from the consequences of Hamas's crimes.) How to do that and how to arrive at peace is complex, but "is this war crime that whatever people did, a war crime" is a lot simpler: The answer is yes.

SuddenDownpour, (edited )

I think you should read the UN report, if you have not

I’ll give it a look later. You linked it in this thread, correct?

Do you have a source for this, like interviews with hostages where they said they were treated humanely, or something?

From the first few weeks of the conflict:

reuters.com/…/freed-israeli-hostage-says-she-was-…

From her words, it looked like the conditions were terrible, but they made efforts to try and minimize the harm. It’s likely that the treatment they gave the hostages varied wildly.

Honestly, like I say, to me it’s not super complicated. Punish the guilty (which in large part means stop shielding Israel from prosecution for their crimes; certainly no one is making much of any attempt to shield Palestine from the consequences of Hamas’s crimes.) How to do that and how to arrive at peace is complex, but “is this war crime that whatever people did, a war crime” is a lot simpler: The answer is yes.

Agreed with everything here.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I'll give it a look later. You linked it in this thread, correct?

Yeah. This is their press release with the quick summary, and this is the full report.

From her words, it looked like the conditions were terrible, but they made efforts to try and minimize the harm. It's likely that the treatment they gave the hostages varied wildly.

Yeah, agreed. I'd imagine there's a lot of variability.

The report talks about what they found interviewing returned hostages on page 18:

  1. The mission team reviewed incidents of alleged sexual violence related to hostages in Gaza. Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.
  2. Based on first-hand accounts of released hostages there are reasonable grounds to believe that female hostages were also subjected to other forms of sexual violence.
speaker_hat,

There are no evidences for it, so until there are, it didn’t happen

mozz, (edited )
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Hello!

This article is a masterclass in slant. It's not attempting to cast any doubt on whether the report shows evidence that Hamas was and still is doing a bunch of sexual assault (to which the answer is pretty clearly yes.) Instead, it does some extensive hand-wringing over related but debatable questions, so as to create out of thin air an aura of controversy and flawed reporting where none exists.

Instead of asking:

  • Did Hamas rape anybody?

They ask:

  • Did this investigation find evidence that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault by its troops? (which is a separate question from, did it happen, but even whether the official sanction happened at all is pretty irrelevant as compared with whether the rape happened)
  • Was the investigation a legal investigation? Or just a team of experts gathering evidence and interviewing witnesses as they visited the sites where assaults were alleged to have taken place and then presenting their findings?
  • Did anyone find videos of Hamas raping people on the dark web?

It's a bunch of crap. The UN's press release summarizes the report that this article concerns pretty comprehensively, although the full report is also very accessible if you want to see some details or skip to some particular section of their conclusions and see exactly what they were and how they conducted their investigation and what they did and didn't find.

From the report:

"Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations."

"With respect to hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing."

That's the important part. Creating an artificial debate couched in slanted language over, was this a legal investigation or some other type of investigation, or were we able to find a Hamas fighter who was willing to confirm to a UN investigative team that his commander said it was okay if he did some raping, is a bunch of crap.

(That's separate from the issue of this person I've never heard of, saying that making false claims of rape would cause the Israeli government to work harder to release the hostages. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me and the rest of the article is so explicitly propagandist that I'm highly skeptical.)

Hey @Linkerbaan - I asked you for some details on your argument that Hamas couldn't have been raping anybody because that one released hostage didn't look pregnant. Do you want to restart that conversation?

I'm also happy to cite the evidence for anything I'm saying here or anything you want to ask about; I got tired of doing it after the first three times, the last time you posted basically this same article, but this is a whole new thread, so if you want to try just claiming confidently again that some particular things aren't in the report, I'm happy to show you where they are in the report.

ShittyBeatlesFCPres,

I get what you’re saying but I’m pretty sure it matters in international law for additional charges against Hamas leadership. There’s, tragically, sexual violence in basically every conflict, and individuals who do it have committed a crime for sure. But proving it’s systematic and used as a tactic would make higher ups in Hamas guilty of (even more) war crimes.

So, it is important for prosecuting Hamas leadership that there be a proper, legal investigation and that it be proven to be either knowingly allowed or (even worse) ordered as a tactic.

Obviously, Hamas and Israel have both committed enough war crimes already that the senior leadership will likely be found guilty of something at The Hague (if ever arrested). But properly accounting for all of the war crimes is important for both justice and history.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I mean, sure. Modern international law defines it as a war crime if you're not preventing your troops from raping as any kind of common occurrence, which is obviously how it should be defined, but is actually pretty recent that it works that way.

But yes I agree, we could probably charge the commanders with more if we could prove that they were explicitly approving of it. Honestly, thinking of taking half the Israeli cabinet and all of the Hamas leadership to the Hague just makes me sad because of how unlikely it is to happen. But yes that would be a great if that could happen and is obviously the right answer if you look at what either of them have done (and are still doing.)

My point was, it's not like the lack of proof that it was approved by the leadership makes it this kind of "gotcha" like OP's article makes it out to be, by cleverly adjusting the language to slip phrases like "does not stand up to scrutiny" in there without technically lying and trying to say that Hamas didn't rape lots and lots and lots of people. That's why I say it's a skillfully deceptive article; it's honestly pretty impressive how it's put together, in a sick sort of rape-apologist type of way.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Once again do explain why israel is blocking the UN investigation? Surely if it would reflect negatively upon Hamas israel would cooperate with it.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Israel hosted the UN investigation, both presenting to them their evidence and letting them travel around in Israel to the impacted areas, and letting them go around on their own including visiting the West Bank and meeting with Palestinian representatives.

They did make some effort, apparently, to dictate what the parameters of the investigation and report needed to be, which the report authors rejected which made the Israelis mad. Then they did the investigation and wrote their report anyway.

I honestly don't know what you mean by "blocking the UN investigation," but I suspect that it has to do with the Israeli government's non-cooperation with the investigative team at times, and rejection of a more thorough investigation, which I suspect was caused by them wanting to be able to lie without anyone investigating their lies. To me, that's a positive thing about the report and investigation, not a negative thing. If it's attempting to be objective in a way which angers Israel, including debunking some Israeli lies, then good.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Israel did not host a UN investigation. The Patten visit was not UN mandated. She was invited by israel for a propaganda tour nothing more.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Dude I don't want to just feed into the Gish Gallop indefinitely 🥲

I am curious, what exactly do you mean by Israel blocking the UN investigation? I know what the report says in section II(A) which sort of matches that description; I know they gave some resistance to the idea of investigating, but I am curious exactly what behavior you're talking about, so I can deal with what you're claiming a little more directly if I feel like investing the time into it.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Then read the post you are in before jumping to defend israel. Why is israel blocking the UN investigation?

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I forgot what conversation I was in 🥲

I've answered the question of why I think Israel has given resistance to the investigation in general. "I suspect was caused by them wanting to be able to lie without anyone investigating their lies" was what I said. (And, actually, I would add to that just a general hostility to the UN based on the fact that the UN keeps pointing out that they're doing war crimes and wanting to investigate IDF sexual violence and similar things the Israelis don't want.) I've asked for more details about exactly what you mean, if you want a more specific answer pertaining to some more specific behavior on Israel's part.

If you want to provide those details, I'm happy to provide that more detailed answer, and if not, I'm not sure what else I could do. I'm aware that this whole conversation is an attempt by you to pivot away from the question "did Hamas rape a bunch of people?", so I'm a little reluctant to give it any energy at all, but I did say I would answer anything you wanted to ask, so there's the answer.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

A sexual violence investigation does not require every UN investigative team to visit. It requires the one specialized in sexual violence.

Also strange that they invited Patten if they are so afraid of a real investigation…

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I am unsure why you keep pushing this myth that the Patten report counts as evidence. It does not. Patten herself says it does not count as legal evidence. This post makes it very clear that the Patten report does not qualify as evidence

You have dodged every question the last time around and you keep dodging the question. You want to quote the parts of the report you like and ignore the parts of the report that debunk the entire report.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I just all of a sudden remembered why I had stopped talking with you about this. 🥲

Patten herself says it does not count as legal evidence. This post makes it very clear that the Patten report does not qualify as evidence

Like I said before, "Creating an artificial debate couched in slanted language over, was this a legal investigation or some other type of investigation" etc etc

You have dodged every question the last time around and you keep dodging the question.

Hey fun! I have some questions which you didn't answer last time around. This is sort of bordering on senseless bickering which helps no one, but sure, I'm happy to repeat the questions you avoided answering in the last thread:

  • Where in the report did you find information about how the hostages were treated? You claimed to have read the UN report, and then made specific claims about what it said -- where in the report did you find the information you were claiming?
  • You made an assertion is that one woman rescued from captivity who doesn't look "very pregnant" has some bearing on whether her or any other women are being raped in custody. Can you tell me more about the logic, why this would follow? I mean I follow the basic premise that "pregnant hostage = rape", I'm just having trouble accepting the contrapositive. Can you explain more?

I actually just asked you that second one, but you dodged it. Want to address it?

(Oh, actually -- third question: "ignore the parts of the report that debunk the entire report." What parts of the report are there that debunk the entire report? Can you explain what you mean here? Like cite the part of the report that you're saying debunks the entire report, and what it says that would debunk the entire report?)

And, like I said, I'm happy to address any question you wanna ask. I thought about citing some times before when I did it with citations and all multiple times, and then you ignored the answers and continued insisting counterfactual things about the report, but maybe that's just getting into the weeds. And likewise, citing the times I asked you a question over and over again and you didn't want to answer it. I think just, ask your question, and I'm happy to answer without dodging.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You keep failing to answer why israel is blocking the official UN investigation. Pasting the same wall of text over and over again.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I had a feeling you wouldn't want to answer my questions. All good.

I don't think it's a good use of my time to just keep dealing with you indefinitely for any amount of Gish Galloping you feel like doing -- I did offer to answer your questions without dodging, though, so:

You keep failing to answer why israel is blocking the official UN investigation.

Two answers:

  • I talked about this here, giving one level of answer, and asking you for some details which could inform a little more complete answer depending on what you're even claiming had happened
  • UN investigators already concluded in Patten's report that there was quite a bit of rape during the October 7th attack and of hostages, notwithstanding your pretense that it didn't conclude that, or wasn't a "legal" investigation and that invalidates it, or that it contained no new information, or other wildly counterfactual things.

Honestly, dude, don't you feel bad about this? A whole bunch of innocent people got raped and are continuing to be raped, and you're over here standing up for the people who did it, trying to spread propaganda implying that it didn't happen, by twisting language around to say well the report that concluded that it happened wasn't a legal investigation, or some other weird little constructions, to obfuscate the very clear evidence which we've already talked about.

My question is, why? Why are you taking that stance? Aren't you against rape, whether or not the investigation that concluded that it happened was a legal investigation or not? I would think that's a pretty easy moral test to pass.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Same wall of text every time. Why is israel blocking the UN investigation?

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Thread here

I had a feeling you would not be eager to engage with the question of why you are working so vigorously to defend rape

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Which rape? Am I defending israel anally raping Palestinians?

TheFonz,

Dude, when an article or comment disagrees with @Linkerbaan they are suddenly Nancy Drew tearing apart every word in the most detailed class in forensic analysis; however, if something agrees with their narrative opinion blog posts are just fine.

I’ve stopped engaging with their arguments because it’s clear this is only a team sports type of online game. The truth is not particularly relevant to this person.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Yeah I had this sort of sudden moment of clarity just now like dude WTF am I thinking investing this level of time and energy into this person

I think a certain amount of debunking was productive but I think the back and forth is sufficient to speak for itself and I've had a chance to quote enough sections of the report to show what's going on, at this point.

TheFonz,

I had this moment of realization when they came out the gate and accused me of Zionism or defending Israel-none of which I care for. In fact I find the actions of Israel despicable in this conflict. It was then that it became clear @Linkerbaan is more here for the team sports aspect of it rather than having a factual discussion to determine the truth of the matter. Right now the conversation is so diluted not much on the conflict can be discussed here because the team sports value has taken precedence over anything else, and personally I’m tired of playing team sports.

Best of luck.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Yeah. I'm honestly a little bit just curious about how their brain works, at this point.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for your opinion guy that claims israel is not an Apartheid state.

TheFonz,

I’ve told you multiple times I’m ok calling it an apartheid state. This is like the 3rd or 4th time now. Go back to playing team sports now.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I don't think it's team sports. I think it's one of two things:

  1. Sometimes people just have a kind of pathology where they like to argue on the internet, because it's satisfying, and they have to "win" or present as a winner in every conversation, and so facts and reality (even demonstrable reality like what the other person said or what the primary sources say) sort of have to bend to what would let them "win" by making some claim or accusation.
  2. I looked over Linkerbaan's user a little bit and it has a little bit of a singular focus on Democrats and Biden ("Democrats are just Republicans these days" "Biden is actively violating Leahy law" "Trump isn't much different than any generic Republican"). Aside from picking crazypants arguments about Hamas not raping anybody, the only other real trend to their comments is domestic politics with a don't-vote-for-Democrats-fellow-leftists flavor that seems oddly familiar.

I initially thought they were way too committed and energetic about this stance they're taking about the UN report, to be any kind of shill, but now I'm less sure. They're certainly posting with a level of energy and aggressiveness that makes a lot more sense if it's their job, and usually people who have come by their counterfactual opinions organically have some kind of structure built up in their head for why it makes sense to them (Like they would say the UN report is crazy and biased and can't be trusted for some reason -- they wouldn't just insist for 2 days that it says a huge variety of very specific things that it doesn't say, and then just not address it on any level when someone points out the contradiction while continuing to go HAM on arguing about it. The second one sounds more like disinformation poster behavior to me.)

I don't really know. They don't act like most shills (or who I believe to be shills) that I have encountered. Like if you just looked at their comments arguing about Hamas, you probably wouldn't predict that their other singular area of focus in comments would be Biden and the Democrats. But the more that I look back over the conversation + take a look over their user, the more it makes sense to me as an explanation.

(Oooh... I just looked a little further; they also use the phrase "blue MAGA," and if you look back past the current conversation there's a lot more of a focus on Biden and Democrats and quite a concerted effort to link Israel's policies to Biden. The plot thickens.)

TheFonz,

Yeah that’s a good assessment. It’s the aggressive and highly energetic and/or frenetic level to it that is particularly odd.

I’ve had lots of discussions or disagreements on this platform with various people, but the vitriolic nature of their comments indicates either a) very young person b) aesthetic / team sports argumentation for the sake of argumentation. Like arguing for the sake of arguing. Can be fun for some people I guess.

mozz, (edited )
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Yeah. For me the really notable factor is the weirdness of the disconnect. Like if you look at the person's claims and study the flow of the conversation back and forth, it starts to become really obvious that they don't actually have factual belief in the things they are saying. But they still want to continue the conversation and invest a bunch of energy into it. Like, a lot, over a long period of time.

So... why? There aren't too many plausible explanations for those two things in combination, and then coming alongside "blue MAGA" and Democrats this and Biden that, it all of a sudden clicks into focus and it all makes sense. Now that I'm looking at it more, I'm pretty sold on shilling being the explanation.

TheFonz,

Well, when I say team sports I mean it as an aesthetic. There are plenty of noble and lofty revolutionary causes to attach onto these days and honestly it’s really laudable that young people are becoming more invested politically.

But there is a contingent that in my opinion is only tagging along the ride for the perceived social capital that is gained by joining a team. Right now, Palestinians are victims and targets of atrocities being perpetuated by the IDF. Right now the in-group is committing a sort of map and territory switch where the aesthetic of the cause supersedes the goals it is trying to achieve.

A good example to ground this is political streamer Hassan Piker: He lives in a multimillion dollar mansion, drives a Porsche, and touts himself as a socialist/communist. He has a sickle and hammer backdrop in a lot of his merchandise but he wouldn’t be the product of what he is without milking capitalism to its full extent.

That’s why when I call out Linkerbaan for larping, I mean it’s just an aesthetic or as a performative production. The map has become the territory.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Antonio Gueterres, the head of the UN certainly doesn’t believe the things you are saying.

Israel fumes as UN secretary-general leaves Hamas off sexual violence blacklist

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Cool! I love the "Never Play Defense" game, and would be happy to bring some other random assertion into the mix to counterbalance your random new assertion. But, I have exhausted the amount of effort I want to expend on this right now. Another day, sure; feel free to reach out any time.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You keep bringing up the same stale points debunked a million times in every thread. Even in the post it’s mentioned the Patten report is not a proper investigation.

You’re the one that doesn’t want to defend the fact that the UN doesn’t acknowledge the Patten report as evidence.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

If you are really hankering that badly to continue the pointless back-and-forth, I should be able to provide you with something, just not right now. I will get back to you though. I have an idea that I think can keep you busy for more or less as much time as you want to spend on it.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

We’re in an article that spent money on a dark web expert to dig up any rape evidence and still didn’t find any.

The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023 . But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

If only those fools from the UN team had spent their money on that, instead of a team of experts in sexual assault who then toured the affected areas and interviewed all those people and reviewed forensic evidence. The answers were on the dark web the whole time. Everyone knows the first thing you learn in Hamas is how to use Tor Browser. Now that you say it that way, it’s completely obvious.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Which forensic rape evidence was found? You’re bringing it up so surely you mean to imply there’s forensic evidence in the UN report?

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Why would I need to tell you? You've read the report, you said, so you would know what is and isn't in it.

A sarcastic response occurred to me, so I let it out, but I'm not interested in continuing the lengthy dishonest exchange where you cosplay as someone who's "winning" (for reasons I still don't really understand.) The interaction is done from my side.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

There’s a new UN report out. Some interesting reading material for you maybe.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/12bed82d-fbfd-451d-9781-26d6d841f613.png

But they did find rape evidence… of israel raping Palestinians.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e6540d41-b6ab-470e-af45-144f332f941a.png

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

My god dude. Okay, sure. This next is a two part message (1/2)

Me

I'd like you to create a report on Linkerbaan's level of good faith engagement in this comment chain. You'll have to be a little bit careful to observe the nested structure of the comments, which ones are replies to which, and then make a detailed report -- in the format of a formally structure report like a UN presentation of fact-finding, divided into chapters, sections, and then subsections where appropriate.

Some of the main chapters I'd like to include are:

  • Unanswered questions: Things people asked Linkerbaan that they never responded substantively to
  • Misrepresentation: Claiming that someone else said something, or some source said something, when it never happened that way
  • Any others you feel are appropriate. Either positive or negative characterizations of Linkerbaan's engagements in the conversation would be appropriate as you determine.
  • At the end, a concrete list of "recommendations" -- a bulleted list of things that would be good for Linkerbaan to answer, or provide, in order to move the conversation forward productively.

Here is the comment chain that I'd like you to summarize in that way. Bear in mind that the topic is a fairly sensitive topic.

(comment chain is redacted)

GPT

Report on the Engagement of Linkerbaan in the Comment Chain

Chapter 1: Unanswered Questions

Section 1.1: Key Instances of Unanswered Questions

  • Question from @Belastend:

    • Original Question: "Who keeps blocking the real UN rape investigations again? Oh right, israel."
    • Response: Linkerbaan repeatedly redirected the conversation back to this point without addressing other questions asked by different users. For example, in response to a direct question about the UN report's evidence of sexual assault, Linkerbaan reverted to asking, "Why does israel keep blocking the UN investigation?" without providing substantive answers to the other points raised.

  • Question from @mozz:

    • Original Questions:
      1. "Where in the report did you find information about how the hostages were treated?"
      2. "Can you explain more about the logic, why this would follow?"
      3. "What parts of the report are there that debunk the entire report?"
    • Response: Linkerbaan did not provide direct answers to these questions. Instead, they repeated their assertion that Israel is blocking a UN investigation without engaging with the specific questions asked.

Section 1.2: Repeated Evasion of Specific Queries

  • Throughout the conversation, Linkerbaan consistently evaded specific queries about the details of the UN report and evidence presented within it. Despite repeated requests for clarification and specific details, Linkerbaan’s responses focused on a single point regarding Israel blocking investigations, without addressing the nuanced questions posed by other participants.

Chapter 2: Misrepresentation

Section 2.1: Misrepresentation of Sources

  • Claim about the UN Report:
    • Original Claim by Linkerbaan: "Not sure why you keep citing a report that has no legal base. The only thing Patten concludes is that there is grounds to do a real investigation."
    • Misrepresentation: Linkerbaan's statement downplays the content of the UN report, which included findings of reasonable grounds for sexual assaults occurring, thus misrepresenting the conclusions of the report to undermine its credibility.

Section 2.2: Misrepresentation of Other Users’ Statements

  • Interaction with @mozz:
    • Claim by Linkerbaan: "You have dodged every question the last time around and you keep dodging the question."
    • Misrepresentation: This statement misrepresents @mozz's engagement, as @mozz provided detailed responses and posed specific questions that Linkerbaan did not address substantively.

Chapter 3: Positive Engagement

Section 3.1: Points of Constructive Dialogue

  • Acknowledgment of Counterpoints:
    • On a few occasions, Linkerbaan acknowledged the need for a thorough investigation and expressed concerns about the suppression of evidence, which can be seen as a constructive element in their engagement.

(To be continued, 1/2)

tobogganablaze,

Haha, that is amazing.

But seriously, you’re just wasting your time with this clown.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Honestly I was pretty impressed with the level of detail and accuracy it was able to come up with.

And yes I know that looking for productive conversation with this person is looking for sandwiches in a pigpen. I do feel like I wasted a little too much time on it yesterday, but I'm just entertaining myself at this point; this kind of thing is funny to me.

TheFonz,

This needs to get in the halls of /bestoflemmy or something.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Second message portion (2/2). This is the recommendations. If you want to keep talking with me, you can start with this section, answering some of the unanswered questions and following the recommendations on how you can engage more productively in the conversation. If you're open to doing that, then sure! Let's rap.

Chapter 4: Recommendations

Section 4.1: Questions for Linkerbaan to Address

  • Substantive Responses to Specific Questions:

    • Provide direct answers to the specific questions posed by @mozz, particularly about the details of the UN report and the logic behind Linkerbaan's assertions regarding the treatment of hostages.

  • Clarification of Evidence Claims:

    • Clarify which parts of the UN report allegedly debunk the entire report and explain how these sections invalidate the report's findings.

  • Address Misrepresentation Concerns:

    • Respond to accusations of misrepresentation by either substantiating claims with concrete evidence or acknowledging any inaccuracies in previous statements.

Section 4.2: Steps for Productive Engagement

  • Engage with Nuanced Points:

    • Engage directly with the nuanced points and specific queries raised by other users to foster a more informed and balanced discussion.

  • Provide Clear Citations:

    • When making claims about the UN report or other sources, provide clear citations and quotes to support these claims and allow for transparent verification by other participants.

  • Acknowledge Other Viewpoints:

    • Demonstrate a willingness to acknowledge and consider other viewpoints, even when they conflict with personal beliefs, to facilitate a more respectful and constructive dialogue.

This structured report aims to objectively assess the engagement of Linkerbaan in the specified comment chain, highlighting areas of evasion, misrepresentation, and providing constructive recommendations for future discussions.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

If you don’t want to engage on a subject consider not replying to a thread. One can’t make false rape accusations and then be upset when they get debunked.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Why are you rejecting my good faith efforts to help you with productively engaging in the conversation

I typed up a whole report just for you Linkerbaan

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Which forensic evidence was it again? Couldn’t find it in your response.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I hope I have at least brought some entertainment to your working day. Have a good one

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks you too mate see you in the next post.

FiremanEdsRevenge,

(Oooh… I just looked a little further; they also use the phrase “blue MAGA,” and if you look back past the current conversation there’s a lot more of a focus on Biden and Democrats

I’ve seen some of the other usual suspects use “blue maga” as well, along with the same biden and democrats rhetoric.

mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Yeah. It was virtually unknown on Lemmy up until around May 20th, when return2ozma and a few other accounts all started using it at the same time. It's sort of dropped off since then; I think their effort to make it catch on failed. But there are a few accounts that still like to drop it into conversation in perfectly natural fashion every now and again.

I think like a lot of propaganda, it's not meant to have any wild level of success on its own; it's more just one little piece that's designed to combine with a hundred other little pieces to create a sizable overall impact.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You don’t appear to be very okay with it seeing how people calling out israel is a very sensitive subject.

TheFonz,

Thanks for your assessment of what appears ok and what doesn’t. Your discernment and insight is always top notch!

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks it’s not that difficult to discern reality from Zionist lies though.

TheFonz,

Ok

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What exactly are you debunking? You didn’t even read the report as you have yet to quote the evidence in it.

If you did read the report you’d find out why the UN isn’t claiming there was any rape on oct7 and you’ll never hear Antonio Gueterres say it.

speaker_hat,

Thanks for the details and the evidences

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