Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the “moderates and liberals” are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what’s at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can’t comprehend the game you’re even trying to threaten. I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican i
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What’s heavily ironic about this is I’ve heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there’s a greater risk to Biden’s reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden’s reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
Such a strong fighter for these 8 months. Yet don’t seem to care whatsoever about the consequences for Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter) for the next 4 years. How curious.
I’m pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden’s position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it’s clearly not.
I’m not really integrated in hypotheticals insomuch as the reality at hand: this is election year. The primaries are over. Biden had moved on the issue of Israel already. And we (as well as Ukraine and Palestine) cannot afford as a nation to go through another 4 years.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn’t shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
Dude Biden and AOC both disagree with you. He clearly has compromised with progressives and been more progressive than probably any president in 40 years.
Literally every single social and economic progressive act had come through Democrats. It may not he as fast as you want but at least it happened unlike wishful thinking.
Biden wasn’t even my 3rd choice and I hear your frustrations on wishing more could be done, but it’s just not feasible until we actually change the rules of the game and kick the GOP to the curb for good.
You argued to me to stop finger-wagging at progressives and focus on the problem. All I’m saying is to do the same. Stop finger-wagging at Biden and influence the polls. Influence the Jewish Americans and I promise you the second you shift their stance you’ll see a reflection in the a Biden Administration’s approach.
Because his team of advisors and strategists with more experience and insider polling data than you or me are doing exactly this.
Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
It’s funny you reply to that but have still managed to dodge my question to you directly related to this… Twice. How convenient.
I’m beginning to feel you’re not discussing in good faith.
I can’t. If you’re right you’re right. But I’ll be voting 3rd party. I won’t be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren’t morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I’m not either.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power. Literally Republicans bankroll your 3rd party candidates including the Green Party to attract folks like you and you fall for the bait. I legitimately have to wonder how old you are simply because these are eerily reminiscent to arguments made from someone sub-22-years-old and witnessing their first maybe second election cycle since turning voting age.
Whatever. If you’re voting 3rd party, that’s too far gone for me to commit any further than I care to. I might as well talk to a Trump supporter.
You’re saying he’d be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can’t agree with that. He’d be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn’t just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He’s doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He’s completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he’d be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn’t any more that needs to be said. It’s holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
Well then my mistake; for sure: Be critical of Biden all you want. I don’t agree with you on what’s strategically better for ensuring his reelection but so be it.
All I care is that you vote for Biden in November. Anything short of that is equivalent to being for Trump.
Also, my bad - it was from another comment chain here:
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it’s orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
… But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Then such a person is a hypocrite. You tell me to stop finger-wagging and then proceed to do precisely the same thing. I don’t know what to say. Can’t be more obvious.
YOU:
“Stop finger-wagging progressives; focus on changing the opinion of Jewish Americans!”
ME:
“Stop finger-wagging Biden; focus on changing the opinions of Jewish Americans!”
Isn’t that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it’s working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he’d be done for. There’s no suddenly stopping the inertia we’ve had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they’re “shit at their jobs”? It’s a cute, confident thing to say… But if you’re really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What’s more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel’s actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn’t share the same popularity. I wouldn’t want to be in Biden’s position or his strategists.
If progressives are smarter and more informed than everyone else, then yes I hold them to a higher standard. I’m one of them, and yes I hold myself to a higher standard than anyone else.
So I’ll change that calculus: I’m voting 3rd party.
And in doing so, you’ll doom Ukrainian women and children, as well as Palestinian women and children because of your pouting for years to come and that disgusts me. But go for it. I can’t teach morality over Lemmy.
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won’t be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden’s position.
And ultimately that’s exactly what we’ve seen over the last couple of months.
Hahaha I’m sorry, what? Now you’re just going off the deep end.
I’d rather ensure my mother doesn’t live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It’s not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You’d rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we’ve had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
I entirely sympathize with that and think this is a very grounded comment. From my view I feel Democrats are losing the information war and our ties to Israel are too deep to just uproot overnight without disastrous consequences.
I weigh the pros/cons of: Biden cutting all ties and aid overnight with Israel versus the risk to popularity and losing the election and handing the keys to Trump. Put another way: if this wasn’t election season and polls weren’t this tight, I think Biden would’ve dropped Israel much faster and absorbed the risk. (sort of like withdrawing from Afghanistan far away from an election).
It is imperative every one of us keep pushing against the Israeli narrative so we alter the polling in favor of walking away from Israel.
Got it you just don’t like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
Incorrect. I just don’t like people shooting themselves in the foot or having tunnel-vision without seeing the bigger picture.
but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn’t even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
Who cares? Whether it’s 6.7 million “by some estimates,” or 7.6 million “by some estimates.” — that in no way changes my point, but good on you for digging in the weeds out of complete irrelevance.
Finally let’s suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They’d have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
Well now we’ve come full-circle. The same question can be posed to Biden by his staff by asking, “What will tankies and the left do, vote for Trump? Not vote? Vote 3rd party? See how that worked out for their agenda when literally every progressive advancement came on the backs of the Democratic party and every reversal thereof came from Republicans.” So between the two groups, which will Biden choose to risk less, the bigger voting population, or the smaller voting population?
Unfortunately there are a lot of swing-voters out there, too, who haven’t had their minds made up. Until they fall into a camp, the Biden administration is going to toe the line to ensure such voters are still reachable.
At this point who cares about Israel? It’s clear they aren’t making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Not talking about Israel. I’m talking about the relentless propaganda campaign about, “How Biden is an antisemite and jeopardized the safety of Jewish people of Israel by taking away their self-defense.” This would be repeated across all right-wing outlets, not to mention the massive amount of foreign interference that is already occurring by Israeli and Russian operatives.
Blatant straw-men have already occurred with me; in my view the door is open. I have no problem dishing back what was already served. If they want to dial it down, then I shall treat them with the utmost respect but these, “Got it. You just don’t x.” responses are tiresome. Of all the things you could hit me for, I believe this is pretty light but I’ll own it as a fallacy.
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
I don’t give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they’re voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you’re smarter.
No seriously, are you okay? It does not, in fact, take two, lest you seek one person to run their mouths and the other to just take it. So unless you’re suggesting we enable bullying without pushing the bully back or fallacies without objection, I’m not really sure what the point is that you’re making.
So kindly explain your thought-process when you respond with simply re-quoting what I said and nothing more; for overall I think my comments remained largely neutral, barring the low-hanging fruit you identified and which I even acknowledged.
What’s hypocritical about noting, “these, ‘Got it. You just don’t x.’ responses are tiresome”? Do you not recognize the obvious snarkiness and straw-man fallacy? Are you saying I’m not allowed to call this out?
And why are you replying multiple times to the same comment instead of just consolidating your response into one?
As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.
So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.
He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
I think it’s just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that “Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats”. There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
Has it? The real issue convincing those who are undecided or supportive of Israeli action; it’s less to do with the minority progressives threatening to not vote because everyone knows progressives will hold their nose. But it’s the swing-voter moderates and centrists who are less informed on the issues and easily-swayable by political talking-points — and who make up a far larger chunk of the electorate — that Biden is concerned about. When 1/3 are unsure if Israel is committing genocide and 1/3 say they’re not, that is a problem.
I’m just forward-thinking and very much against it for the next 4 years, let alone next 8 months. Some people see a few more chess-moves ahead than others, I guess. Seems hard for you.
No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
How has he moved right? Welcoming Haley voters is a sound strategy that is not mutually-exclusive to moving left, which he absolutely has on the topic of Israel.
Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20
That, however isn’t the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.
Any amount of research will, in fact, show that Perot did not win and 3rd-party groups routinely spoil elections without remotely advancing their own agenda they claim to care about.
I have proved both of these things. Both With Nader and Perot, as well as showing the difference in actual progressive advancements between third-parties in Democrats is so great that there is little point in supporting a third-party — especially when the FPTP system mathematically goes against them.
But any time you want to make a bet a 3rd-party candidate winning versus one of the two primary parties, I’ll happily take that bet on money.
Biden reacts to pro-Palestinian protesters: 'They have a point' (www.nbcnews.com)