Wrote this before and I’ll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn’t just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn’t hear the words, “indiscriminate bombing” from Trump’s facial sphincter.
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it’s orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
… But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
What I mean by that is it’s far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I’m all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn’t change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Ah yes, that’s a completely accurate and fair description of the choice at hand and totally 100% not an obvious straw-man fallacy, leaving aside the cute little purity pyrrhic victory you’re setting yourself up for.
It’s intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”? My counter-argument is actually: The shitty decision is more popular, and it prevents the even-shittier decision from playing out next year, should the other guy win.
The good news is that Biden has clearly pivoted in recent months, going from being lockstep with Netanyahu to calling out the indiscriminate bombing and having a public tussle with them now. In fact they’ve moved more on this issue than I expected, abstaining from their veto-power and outright calling Israel’s actions indiscriminate.
But it’s a curious thing, your dodging my question: Just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
I’m all for trying to convince them, which is clearly what the Biden administration is softly trying to do. Too hard, and you know enough from internet arguments how people double-down blindly to safe face. That doesn’t change the fact of the current polling.
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
Like other epiphyte orchids, the roots of Phalaenopsis roots are covered with a spongy epidural tissue called “velamen.” Just a few cells thick, velamen helps orchid roots absorb water and nitrogen from the air.
It’s probably my favorite plant. Hardy as hell despite a bad reputation for being picky. People don’t realize they just go dormant until Spring.
In an exclusive interview with CNN, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis says the work on the case against former President Donald Trump has not been delayed in the wake of a hearing into her relationship with former lead prosecutor Nathan Wade.
Sounds reasonable to me. Trump runs his mouth because he needs to keep his cult engaged and grift them for money.
Fanni doesn’t need that. She just needs to operate cool and strictly within the purview of the legal system. She should take a page or two from Jack Smith.
Dude we’re unprecedented territory and that is basically a gambler’s fallacy. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that the patterns of the past will continue. For example, Biden already disrupted the power of the Incumbent president and ousted Donald short of 2 terms, which itself is a rarity not seen since Carter.
“Worse than the other guy” is basically all that people can take at this point, and I think the best argument going into the election. It works because it’s one of the only arguments against valid criticisms of Biden. “Yes, he is old; but he is better than the other guy for x, y, and z.” Nothing wrong with this strategy.
I do agree that Democrats need to punch back harder, though.
I honestly hope you’re right, so would you mind linking me to that polling?
My concern is this: Last I checked a majority of Jewish Americans are still pretty sympathetic to Israel, and the Biden administration must toe the line between pissing off Palestinian Americans and Progressives, and a large traditionally-loyal voting bloc that is Jewish Americans.
If Democrats pivot hard against Netanyahu, they run the risk of Republican ads appealing to low-education voters that, “Biden is sympathetic to Hamas and has no sympathy for October 7th, undermining the defense of Israel and risking another terrorist attack! iS BiDen an aNtiSeMiTe!?”
So from a strategic standpoint, I completely understand the predicament the Biden strategists are in. Obviously you can tell they want to distance themselves from Israel and Netanyahu but not without undermining an essential voting bloc and letting the literal fascist in office who DEFINITELY does not care remotely about being complicit in genocide.
I feel that’s pretty concerning that the plurality says it’s not committing genocide and another 1/3 is unsure. It doesn’t seem that article identified independents or swing-voters. One calculus Biden admin must make is: since the majority of those who claim Israel is committing genocide are Democrats, are said voters really going to stand by and not vote for Biden and let the guy who is objectively worse and will most certainly not just indirectly but directly engage in genocide? Considering these are the better educated voters, I’d hope not and Biden strategists may call their bluff. At least that’s what I’d be discussing on the oval office meeting for reelection.
Ultimately the public needs informed of the atrocities of Israel and Biden should probably try to distinguish Netanyahu’s far-right administration and overstep in response to October 7th from support of Israeli citizens themselves. That’s the needle that needs threaded.
2/3rds of people in the US think Israel is either NOT committing genocide or they are unwilling to say Israel definitely IS committing genocide (which, if you didn’t care or thought what they were doing wasn’t fine you wouldn’t say you were undecided on whether Israel isn’t committing genocide, people don’t just throw that word around lightly).
For instance, perhaps there are those waiting for the ICC’s verdict.
The only thing that really matters —for aforementioned unaddressed reasons pertaining to the predominantly Democratic voters believing it is genocide — is what swing-voters believe; and if they are undecided or believe Israel is not committing genocide, then they will be the most susceptible to the right-wing propaganda machine that is going to ramp up in the coming months. Biden advisors will clearly wait to see where they fall before fully committing to either side.
And ultimately: Does anyone here actually believe Biden wants to be associated with Genocide? Is he a homicidal maniac happy to see Palestinians suffer? I don’t get that impression.
And If it were that cut-and-dry, why wouldn’t he just abandon Netanyahu entirely?
So it begs the question: what do we as armchair lemmy geniuses believe we know better than the consensus of his advisors and strategists with far more experience and precision survey data than we have?
^ For bystanders reading: Nudding in another thread somehow managed to blame Biden for the reversal of Roe and that he should magically snap his fingers and override the Supreme Court of the United states… Or something. Anyway, Republicans thank them for their service. Surely Trump will do better, amirite?
Beware of people like this; for nuance isn’t their forte.
but at this point the only reasonable conclusion is that Biden is ideologically committed to Israel in a way that blinds him to empathizing with the Palestinian genocide.
I think I gave another very reasonable logical conclusion that went completely unaddressed, did I not?
I mean, easily 4/5 of my comment went just completely ignored.
The Islamic State group claimed responsibility for the attack in a statement posted on affiliated channels on social media. A U.S. intelligence official told The Associated Press that U.S. intelligence agencies had learned the group’s branch in Afghanistan was planning an attack in Moscow and shared the information with Russian officials.
Whatever happens between now and November, it doesn’t change the fact that an election is going to occur in November. Furthermore, in that election Trump would be worse in quite literally every conceivable way, including for the people of Palestine / Gaza. Therefore nothing you said has any impact on my point in my comment.
Feel free to pressure Biden to do more for Palestine in the meantime; just try to comprehend that if Biden too quickly shifts to abandoning longtime support for Israel, he may ostracize an even-larger voting bloc of Jewish Americans who by the polling support Israel pretty vehemently (80%+). If you think politically he can jeopardize that group versus the smaller far-left and Palestinian segments of the population, you’d be wrong. He must toe the line between these two groups.
No matter how hard you try to shoehorn Biden being responsible for the Genocide in Gaza, as a convenient wedge-driving tactic for which right-wingers love you for – it’s not goin to work. Netanyahu is responsible. Period.
If Trump were in office right now, the fate of Gaza would’ve been even worse. Forget the fact that you seem 100% a-okay with Ukraine not getting any more assistance either.
So you’ve got no substantive rebuttal to my points. I’ll take that as an indirect concession, thank you. Keep chanting your little game in puritanical pyrrhic victory where you shoot one’s self (and Palestinians for that matter) in the foot.
Just commenting to agree that the other user is clearly a wedge-driving troll with no interest in good-faith discussion. It’s clear how they just dodge the obvious counters and repeats the same drivel. Laughing my ass off that they tried to pin abortion rights losses on Biden LOL.
Oh darnit, there’s that reading comprehension deficit again! Allow me to explain: You see, it’s not the issues that are funny — no quite right; very serious — it is quite clearly your unparalleled leaps in logic as you draw these highly peculiar conclusions.
Kyle Rittenhouse abruptly departed the stage during an appearance at the University of Memphis on Wednesday, after he was confronted about comments made by Turning Point USA founder and president Charlie Kirk....
The White House has approved nearly $144 billion in federal loan forgiveness for about 4 million borrowers in total, according to the administration....
Reading comments on Youtube and so forth, I actively lose brain cells. Fun facts to counter sour right-wing talking-points:
Those forgiven under this fall under the DoE’s discretion in lieu of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program that was legislation signed into law under… George W. Bush. The Biden Administration is just streamlining and actively using a system that was already in place but unused.
It’s nice to see the working class get bailed out for once instead of banks and big corporations.
Tuition has risen since the boomers’ time, and in addition to that unregulated private diploma mills have taken advantage of many people all the while contributing to degree-inflation.
Edit: You guys are too kind to have not pointed that out lmao.
I just tend to associate this style with right-wingers at least in my area, so I distance myself a bit.
Personally I think the long beard look is unkempt and a bit of a fad and a bitch to deal with from a functional standpoint; meanwhile it looks like they’re about to fly to Afghanistan to join the Taliban. To each their own though.
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said policy differences toward Israel between her and President Biden won’t stop her from supporting him in the November general election....
Many poor people go to Columbia and Harvard. His parents weren’t just gifted, they went to school and rose in money themselves. What exactly is wrong with that? This isn’t the Rockefellers, my friend.And you’re referring to the father who left him when he was – checks notes – 2-years-old…?
Per Michelle:
Barack and I were both raised by families who didn’t have much in the way of money or material possessions.
CBS Fact check:
Obama, whose family was abandoned by his father when he was young, was brought up by his mother and grandparents, none of whom were wealthy. He attended the exclusive Punahou High School in Honolulu, Hawaii as a scholarship student. In his autobiography, Dreams of My Father, he wrote of his struggle to fit into a school where he was one of the few black students.
Put another way, how the hell do you advocate to prevent this from occurring? I can see campaign finance/election reform ensuring publicly-funded elections, sure, but now you’re saying because someone’s parents went from rags to strong middle-class (they weren’t basking in millions as far as I can tell), then that’s diminishing choice to such an extent that we no longer have a democracy or… What?
I sympathize with this, but how do we genuinely address it? Since the dawn of civilization, it always has been about who you know and the steps your ancestors took to improve your position.
If a black man raised by his middle-class mother and grandparents can run on a scholarship and succeed in school, then work his way up through higher and higher public offices… I think that’s a testament to choice in America. I won’t sit here and say it’s perfect, but I take issue with the user claiming, “I don’t really have a choice” and “doesn’t sound like much of a democracy,” — I mean shit, you know how many people of other countries would kill to have what we have? He takes it for granted.
You paint his stepfather as some wealthy oil magnate when he was a… Geologist who worked in Indonesia… Whose most notable description of their wealth I can find is, “replacing their motorcycle with a car” as they rented a home in Indonesia. Clearly basking in wealth, am I right…? By age 10, Barack was being raised solely by his grandparents, (whose grandfather operated a furniture store) while his stepfather in Indonesia and his mother going to school and then returning to Indonesia without Barack. Obama’s stepfather divorced his mother when Barack was 19. His background was middle-class. Otherwise please, show tax returns of his parents, or him living in a lavish mansion, or any indication whatsoever that he was well above middle-class.
So look how far the bar has dropped from your initial claim of wealth and privilege. The best you’ve got is a “connection” to a nice grade school that he earned a scholarship for…? If you’re referring to connections down the road, after he studied in school and became a professor, and then after that becoming a community organizer, then a state senator, then a US senator… Well, that’s generally how you make connections and rise through the ranks. The point being: a person from at-best middle-class origins managed to do that, as a black person in an otherwise racist America.
Resolving the influence of money from others in elections is pretty straight-forward, but what I’m asking is how you resolve “networking & connections” as you vaguely allude to what Obama had?
I stand by my claim they were at best middle-class.
There’s a lot of very smart, well educated, people who will never be president simply because they don’t know anyone who can write checks to cover the time off work and advertising necessary.
Then I contest they may not be as smart as you think, or they just lack any political ambition whatsoever and would rather throw peanuts from the peanut gallery without actually doing the ground-work of grassroots organization or running for office as Obama did loooooooooooooong before he had to get checks written. Besides, unfortunately in order to change the game you tend to have to first play by the existing rules of the game first.
I scrolled up. The conversation went about as follows:
ME: “Did anyone stop you or anyone else from running for President?”
YOU: “Yeah actually… [the current setup] bars 99.9% of people from ever running for President.”
From there I:
Proved Obama’s upbringing was fragmented and middle-class at best, wich contradicts your claim they had “plenty of money” and he was not remotely “born connected.”
Showed that Obama, a middle-class African American of middle-class parents of middle-class grandparents was not “in the club”.
I provided direct quotes from fact-checkers and Michelle Obama herself, noting as much.
Next:
You repeatedly used this unfounded claim that his stepfather — who was largely out of his life by 10 —was an “oil executive” when he was a geologist and consultant at best — Untrue. I cannot find a modicum of evidence on this except a literal uncited reference in some editorialized article.
Now you’re moving the goalpost from “middle class” to “working class” by some arbitrary definition no less… ? Come on, I call bullshit.
The main thing I see eye-to-eye on is that:
You need to be “networked” in order to be popular, which is kind of a given. There are many means by which to be networked, of course. In any realistic system you conceive of creating, that will always be inevitable.
Money influencing politics is probably the most important issue to address in order to save our Democracy.
Finally, please don’t straw-man my points. Nowhere did I claim they’re lazy. That is your filling in the blanks to make your response easier. I think I’m FAR more closer to reality in writing, “99.9% of people just don’t want to become President because they have other interests and ambitions and life circumstances” than your claim that “99.9% CAN’T become President” (in your words, “banned”).
Unanswered questions by you:
The pathway of more choice is through the Democratic party and no other viable way. Do you agree?
The better CHOICE between Biden and Trump is an obvious one, yes?
Relative to the user whom I originally responded, America has more choice than most nations of the world, yes?
Let me make my position very, very clear: Saying someone lacks political ambition does not mean they’re lazy. I have no idea how you misconstrued that, but I hope I made myself clear. If I wanted to call someone lazy, I would just do it. But are you denying it’s easier for people to be critics than actually do better than that which they criticize?
And you can’t just declare you proved something.
Well when there is no substantive or sourced rebuttal and I sort of, well, did… Then yes, I am going to say that.
Obama has a rags-to-riches side to his story he hopes will resonate with middle-class voters. His mother Ann Dunham was just 18 when she married Barack Obama Sr. and became a single parent when Obama was only two. Obama has recalled that his mother sometimes relied on food stamps to get by when he was growing up and used to wake him at 4 a.m. five days a week to tutor him during the time the family lived in Indonesia. She and Obama’s grandparents, who helped to raise him, managed to get him accepted to Punahou Academy, a prestigious private school in Hawaii. He later attended Columbia University and Harvard Law School.
I don’t know. Anyone whose parents depended on food-stamps may not fit your literal definition of “rags,” but I think I made my case. But it’s awfully convenient that you can continue to lie about his stepfather’s fortunes and giving Obama a cushy life while – let me check – giving absolutely zero sources thus far while obviously distorting the “oIl eXeCuTiVe” caricature for which you’ve clearly deflected because you know you’re full of shit on this front. Then finally just denouncing any biographical or autobiographical account of their status as being PR (without any actual evidence).
Then let’s turn a different way: We’ve proved you can go from middle-class to President, but that’s not enough for you and means 99.9% can’t be president (“banned”, as you explicitly wrote)? Finally: I thought I made myself clear in solving issues related to outside money influencing elections and largely agreeing with you in this respect.
Meanwhile you still dodged the questions, and now I’ll add to that list:
Unanswered questions by you:
The pathway of more choice is through the Democratic party and no other viable way. Do you agree?
The better CHOICE between Biden and Trump is an obvious one, yes?
Relative to the user whom I originally responded, America has more choice than most nations of the world, yes?
Who is closer to reality: “99.9% of people just don’t want to become President because they have other interests and ambitions and life circumstances” or your claim, “99.9% CAN’T become President” because they are, in your words, “banned”?
Anyways, this has been an interesting conversation and appears to have been exhausted, I’ll leave it there and oblige you with the final response.
Yeah that’s sad but I can completely understand. Religions have been abusing this for eons and now it’s being used directly for a political ideology. There comes a point where reason doesn’t even matter.
Biden reacts to pro-Palestinian protesters: 'They have a point' (www.nbcnews.com)
New transcripts confirm it: Donald Trump never cared about Ashli Babbitt (www.salon.com)
Trump now hypes her as a January 6 martyr, but when he was told of Babbitt’s death, there was “no, like, reaction”...
We have found it. (lemm.ee)
Biden signs $1.2tn spending package as government shutdown is averted (www.theguardian.com)
Package passed Senate late Friday night by vote of 74-24, narrowly averting shutdown and banning Gaza aid through March 2025...
‘The train is coming’: Fani Willis has warning for Trump in wake of hearing to try to oust her (www.cnn.com)
In an exclusive interview with CNN, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis says the work on the case against former President Donald Trump has not been delayed in the wake of a hearing into her relationship with former lead prosecutor Nathan Wade.
Democrats who attack the rich do better in elections. The party should take notice (www.theguardian.com)
Gunmen in combat fatigues fire at crowds at Moscow concert hall, a big blaze follows (apnews.com)
Blinken unloads on Bibi: "You need a coherent plan" or face disaster in Gaza (www.axios.com)
Kyle Rittenhouse storms off stage after being confronted by students (www.newsweek.com)
Kyle Rittenhouse abruptly departed the stage during an appearance at the University of Memphis on Wednesday, after he was confronted about comments made by Turning Point USA founder and president Charlie Kirk....
Biden cancels nearly $6 billion in student debt for 78K public service workers (www.nbcnews.com)
The White House has approved nearly $144 billion in federal loan forgiveness for about 4 million borrowers in total, according to the administration....
Trump loses bid to block Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels testimony at hush money trial (www.reuters.com)
MyPillow CEO Loses It After Realizing the Courts Won’t Save Him | The New Republic (newrepublic.com)
From the top of the article, we come to discover that the MyPillow person is asking us all to foot his legal bill:...
Navarro’s bid to stave off jail sentence denied at Supreme Court (www.politico.com)
Peter Navarro, a former trade adviser in Donald Trump’s White House, appears to be heading to jail.
Disturbingly accurate (lemmy.today)
Omar says Israel policy divisions won’t stop her from supporting Biden in November (thehill.com)
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said policy differences toward Israel between her and President Biden won’t stop her from supporting him in the November general election....
Donald Trump will not win a war against the Swifties (www.businessinsider.com)