nyan

@nyan@sh.itjust.works

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nyan,

That would gum up the belt on the sander, which surely is not responsible for the thumbnails.

nyan,

Even better: “#1 in the count y” with a damaged area right before the y. Missing letter or just bad kerning? No one will be able to tell until after they taste the pizza! 😜

nyan,

I agree that Gentoo will probably work, as it still has functional i486 support. Be aware that you may be spending a lot of time compiling if you go that route and don’t have a second, faster machine to use for distcc or the like.

As for the nvidia card, the proprietary driver won’t work for something of that age. Check the supported cards in Nouveau (and maybe even the really old drivers for prehistoric cards). In a pinch, the vesa driver should work. Good luck.

nyan,

If it were an Itanium, the OP would know it. They’re not common (and I doubt Puppy would have booted on such a system—it isn’t compatible with x86).

Also, support for that arch is being dropped from the Linux kernel as of 6.7.0, so looking for a supporting distro would be a fool’s quest (Gentoo still technically offers Itanium packages, but they’re on the way out.)

The anti-AI sentiment in the free software communities is concerning. (lemmy.world)

Whenever AI is mentioned lots of people in the Linux space immediately react negatively. Creators like TheLinuxExperiment on YouTube always feel the need to add a disclaimer that “some people think AI is problematic” or something along those lines if an AI topic is discussed. I get that AI has many problems but at the same...

nyan,

Gnome and other desktops need to start working on integrating FOSS

In addition to everything everyone else has already said, why does this have anything to do with desktop environments at all? Remember, most open-source software comes from one or two individual programmers scratching a personal itch—not all of it is part of your DE, nor should it be. If someone writes an open-source LLM-driven program that does something useful to a significant segment of the Linux community, it will get packaged by at least some distros, accrete various front-ends in different toolkits, and so on.

However, I don’t think that day is coming soon. Most of the things “Apple Intelligence” seems to be intended to fuel are either useless or downright offputting to me, and I doubt I’m the only one—for instance, I don’t talk to my computer unless I’m cussing it out, and I’d rather it not understand that. My guess is that the first desktop-directed offering we see in Linux is going to be an image generator frontend, which I don’t need but can see use cases for even if usage of the generated images is restricted (see below).

Anyway, if this is your particular itch, you can scratch it—by paying someone to write the code for you (or starting a crowdfunding campaign for same), if you don’t know how to do it yourself. If this isn’t worth money or time to you, why should it be to anyone else? Linux isn’t in competition with the proprietary OSs in the way you seem to think.

As for why LLMs are so heavily disliked in the open-source community? There are three reasons:

  1. The fact that they give inaccurate responses, which can be hilarious, dangerous, or tedious depending on the question asked, but a lot of nontechnical people, including management at companies trying to incorporate “AI” into their products, don’t realize the answers can be dangerously innacurate.
  2. Disputes over the legality and morality of using scraped data in training sets.
  3. Disputes over who owns the copyright of LLM-generated code (and other materials, but especiallly code).

Item 1 can theoretically be solved by bigger and better AI models, but 2 and 3 can’t be. They have to be decided by the courts, and at an international level, too. We might even be talking treaty negotiations. I’d be surprised if that takes less than ten years. In the meanwhile, for instance, it’s very, very dangerous for any open-source project to accept a code patch written with the aid of an LLM—depending on the conclusion the courts come to, it might have to be torn out down the line, along with everything built on top of it. The inability to use LLM output for open source or commercial purposes without taking a big legal risk kneecaps the value of the applications. Unlike Apple or Microsoft, the Linux community can’t bribe enough judges to make the problems disappear.

nyan,

Which means that if you have a flatpak with an uncommon library and the dev stops issuing updated flatpaks because they get hit by a bus, you could be SOL with respect to that library. Distro libs are less likely to have this happen because very few distros have a bus factor of 1—there’s usually someone who can take over.

nyan,

Not for everyone, no. For me, each supposed pro has a corresponding con or is just a no-op:

  1. Only one package for all distros: Despite what people think, this does not lower the amount of work for the program’s creator, who was never required to create any sort of binary package at all. Furthermore, it means that fewer people are checking the package for faults—that’s part of what distro maintainers do, y’know.
  2. No external dependencies: Not only does this cause disk bloat, but it means that if the flatpak is no longer updated, the dependencies packaged inside it may not be either . . . which is one of the issues that dynamic linking was supposed to avoid in the first place. Might as well just go old-school and statically link the binary.
  3. Installations at user rather than system level: Only of value if I don’t have admin authority, and I don’t have to deal with a single system where that’s the case, so this is a no-op.
  4. Supposedly more rapid updates: I’m running Gentoo, not Debian fossil :cough: oldstable. If I really want to, I can have my package manager install direct pulls from source control for many packages. New changes every day—beat that, flatpak. Plus, unless there’s been a substantial change to a package’s build method, I can bump actual releases myself just by copying and renaming a small file, then running a couple of commands.
  5. Sandboxing: As far as I’m concerned, the amount of security added by sandboxing and the amount of security added by the additional scrutiny from the distro maintainers is probably about even (especially since the sandbox, as a non-trivial piece of software, will inevitably contain bugs). And I can can throw firejail on top if I’m worried about something specific (or run it in a VM if I’m really nervous). I can understand why this might be attractive to some people, but for me the weight is very low.

.

So I’m left with avoiding bloat and bugs in flatpak’s system integration vs. a little bit of security gained by additional sandboxing (which I don’t think I really need, because I’m only mid-level paranoid). Thus, I’m not interested in complexifying my update process by incorporating flatpak into my system. Others’ needs may be different.

nyan,

Ships with Gentoo by default, since you actually need a nongraphical editor there and nano is easier to learn than vi or emacs.

Linux on old School Machines?

Hi all, the private school I work at has a tonne of old windows 7/8 era desktops in a student library. The place really needs upgrades but they never seem to prioritise replacing these machines. Ive installed Linux on some older laptops of mine and was wondering if you all think it would be worth throwing a light Linux distro on...

nyan,

They’re unlikely to do worse than my laptop from 2008, and it’s perfectly usable under Linux (bit of a lag when starting up large programs, that’s all). As has already been said, go for a lighter desktop environment (XFCE, LXQT, Mate, TDE) unless these machines were high-spec’d for their era. For the oldest machines, you might want to consider installing Puppy Linux rather than one of the more mainstream distributions, since Puppy specializes in old x86-family hardware.

nyan,

Some of them throw up their hands and reinstall at the first sign of a problem. The rest get someone else to do the “hard” part for them, in my experience. They hand it over to the Unofficial Repair Person Paid in Beer and Pizza, who does the command-line stuff, registry editing, etc. Or they get an official repair person. Less than 10% of the Windows-using population does their own fixes.

nyan,

Gentoo’s benefits come from having software specifically compiled for your specific CPU, which can take advantage of its quirks. Technically that’s achievable with other distros as well; it’s just a lot more work when it isn’t built into your package manager. You can also eke out additional performance by building a custom kernel and removing various features that are meant to protect against bugs or security concerns, and while Gentoo doesn’t push custom kernels as hard as it did twenty years ago, the capability is still readily accessible.

So: Gentoo makes it easier to access methods than can in theory be used to speed up any distro. The gains are either quite modest (for custom compilation) or not necessarily that good a tradeoff (disabling Spectre mitigations and other protections in the kernel). 🤷

(Yes, I wrote a serious response to a joke post. Bite me.)

18+ What are the differences between the 'base' of various Linux distributions?

I’ve been using linux desktop for a year or so now. One noteable thing i keep seeing is that one person will say I dont like XYZ distrobution because of its base. But I am still a little unsure what is meant by it. I am assuming the main difference between each base is the choice of package management(?). But what other...

nyan,

One thing no one seems to have touched on yet: distros have philosophies—guiding principles that affect what packages they have and how they’re presented.

For instance, Debian is strongly open-source-centric. Closed-source software is not normally found in their main repository (even when it would be useful to put it there, like some drivers).

Gentoo, on the other hand, is all about user choice. You’re expected to choose for yourself whether you want to use systemd or OpenRC, X or Wayland, which DE (if any) you want to use, and which features you do or don’t want compiled into your software. However, Gentoo is quite happy to include closed-source software in the main package repository, because using it is also a choice that some people prefer to make.

Red Hat, Arch, and Slackware (to name the remaining major foundational distros) also have their own philosophies. Some descendant distros retain their parents’ principles, while others discard them and develop a philosophy of their own (Ubuntu doesn’t have Debian’s Open Source Uber Alles tendencies, for instance).

nyan,

I prefer mplayer—novel-length man page and all—for video, but there’s nothing innately wrong with VLC. I did try it, a very long time ago, but it felt too GUI-oriented for my taste back then.

(I can think of exactly two times mplayer has failled to play a file I presented it with, and in both cases it was my own fault for not compiling in support for that codec. However, the man page is justifiably frightening.)

nyan,

I have a laptop of that era (2008 HP Pavilion, Athlon64x2, 2GB RAM, 100GB HDD). It runs the Trinity Desktop Environment, which works just as well now as it did when that laptop was a flagship machine. (Updating a Gentoo system running on a machine that old is a bit time-consuming, mind you, but that isn’t the DE’s fault.)

I’ve tried several of the other lighter-weight DEs—XFCE, LXDE, Lumina, Gnome2 before it became MATE—but TDE does what I need it to do, and (just as importantly) the development team prefers to work on features and compatibility rather than tearing out things that still work or forcing new paradigms that don’t really make sense for my use case onto me. It’s there, it’s solid, and I’ve already learned its quirks, so I can save my brain cells for learning useful features in other programs rather than having to figure out where the control for some bit of the GUI ran off to this time. Why would I use anything else? The thing I want most from my DE is for it to stay out of the way and not keep me from using other software.

(Plus, Konqueror may no longer be useful as a web browser, but it’s still a better file manager than, say, Thunar, which I found to be a pain in the arse when I tried XFCE.)

nyan,

Delete all the code. Then you’ll have no bugs.

nyan,

Rolling-release Linux distros such as Arch, Gentoo, and OpenSUSE Tumbleweed constantly release the latest updates, but they’re not used in businesses.

So some businesses decided that monolithic releases were more important than being able to get the latest upstream vanilla kernel version, and somehow that’s the fault of “all Linux kernel vendors” (including rolling-release distros, since there was no attempt to qualify “all”) and not the businesses’ decisions about tradeoffs?

nyan,

should still already choose their sexuality

Sexuality is not a choice, any more than your skin colour is a choice.

nyan,

To echo others here, you really need to kill the driver. There are a couple of different kernel modules that might be involved, depending on exactly how your touch panel is connected to the rest of the system. Software that has no specific touch support will likely treat your renegade hardware as a mouse, rather than ignoring it.

You may be able to unbind the driver from the device, see this discussion on stackexchange.

nyan,

Dude. I actually have sources for most of my installed packages lying around, because Gentoo. Do you know how much space that source code takes up?

Just under 70GB. And pretty much everything but maybe the 10GB of direct git pulls is compressed, one way or another.

That means that even if your distro is big and has 100 people on development, they would each have to read 1GB or more of decompressed source just to cover the subset of packages installed on my system.

How fast do you read?

nyan,

Does a WinNT clone count as “truly different”, though? Maybe Haiku would have been a better choice for that.

nyan,

You don’t have a cat, do you?

CAD Software Suggestion

I am currently on win10 but have been toying with mint and liking it. I intend on fully switching over soon. I have also been toying with the idea of some simple 3D modeling, like making custom parts for projects around my house. Maybe using a CAD software to generate stls for a 3D print or using it to spec out parts for a...

nyan,

The only thing I miss about fusion 360 is an easy way to add fillets to parts, that can be tricky in openscad. I use chamfers for the most part though, so I don’t miss it much.

There’s an OpenSCAD add-on lib called BOSL that offers primitives with built-in fillet options (plus a wide array of other stuff, like premodeled metric bolts). Admittedly it spends a lot of time reinventing the wheel, but I’ve found it useful from time to time.

nyan,

A minimal Gentoo install contains less than 30 packages and fits in 1GB of disk (no GUI, though). If you more than double either of those numbers, you’re not “minimal”.

nyan,

It stopped being secret a couple of years ago.

nyan,

sudo is already an optional component (yes, really—I don’t have it installed). Don’t want its attack surface? You can stick with su and its attack surface instead. Either is going to be smaller than systemd’s.

systemd’s feature creep is only surpassed by that of emacs.

nyan,

The problem is that those modules are packaged by the developers as opt-out rather than opt-in. It’s a variation on Microsoft’s old embrace-extend-extinguish playbook, only the “extinguish” part hasn’t worked so well because there are some stubborn distros whose needs don’t align with what systemd provides and have maintainers that go out of their way to provide alternatives.

(By contrast, although we may joke about emacs, it’s the myriad of third-party extensions that cause it to just about be its own operating system—it doesn’t all ship with the core.)

nyan,

Granted, in a true multiuser environment with an admin who’s carefully tailoring /etc/sudoers to make sure everyone has the least possible privileges that will allow them to still do what they need, sudo is more secure. There’s no doubt of that.

On a machine that has only one human user who’s also the admin, and retains the default sudo-with-user-passwords configuration, su vs sudo is pretty much a wash, security-wise. su requires a second password to get root access, but sudo times out and requires the password to be re-entered while a shell created by su can stay open indefinitely. Which is more easily broken will depend on other details of your situation.

(If you’re running an incorrectly configured ssh server that allows direct root login with only password authentification, having a root password could contribute to problems, but the correct fix there is to reconfigure the ssh server not to do something so stupid. I hope there’s no distro that still ships that way out of the box.)

nyan,

Early true BIOSen were stored on EPROM, which couldn’t be rewritten while on the board, so those were read-only.

Later BIOSen were often on EEPROM or other chips that could be reflashed while on the board. According to Wikipedia, that started in the mid-1990s. However, you usually needed physical access and/or special software tools to do an overwrite—you couldn’t mount these as a filesystem.

UEFI is quite different from legacy BIOSen and can be mounted as a filesystem, but how much it can be tampered with varies between implementations and devices.

So you would have been correct up until about 30 years ago, but not for modern systems.

nyan,

Gentoo specifically switches off the telemetry (-Daudacity_has_sentry_reporting=off,-Daudacity_has_crashreports=off). The cloud saving facility is also off by default, but can be added to the build by enabling the audiocom USE flag.

Why is folder sharing between host and guest in KVM so hard?

I’m having the hardest tine setting up a shared folder between a Linux host and Win11guest. I want to get rid of dual boot, but there are a few programs that I use which are Win only. I have set up a VB VM, but I want a fine tuned KVM VM. On VB sharing is trivial, but I can’t get it to work in KVM. I have the host sharing...

nyan,

The method of last resort would be to place the files you want shared on a virtual drive that you pass to the Windows guest, then mount that virtual drive as a loopback device under Linux. I have only done this for very old versions of Windows that can’t talk to normally configured current versions of Samba, so I don’t know how it will behave with 11—simultaneous access doesn’t really work with my Win 98SE guest, but the method is adequate for passing files back and forth.

(The person who suggested wsdd2 is likely right on the money, though—a Samba share won’t be browsable without it from modern Windows, although you may still be able to connect to it blind if you know the address. Problem is, in my experiences with Samba, the address was usually not quite what I expected . . .)

nyan,

What I’ve always wondered about that one is: why bother forbidding Google but not ‘man tar’? 🤨

nyan,

Surely the bomb isn’t the only computer in the immediate area.

nyan,

If I recall correctly, ext3 is ext2 with journalling on top, so they can’t really get rid of ext2 without also ditching ext3.

nyan,

ext4 is still solid for most use cases (I also use it). It’s not innovative, and possibly not as performant as the newer file systems, but if you’re okay with that there’s nothing wrong with using it. I intend to look into xfs and btrfs the next time I spin up a new drive or a new machine, but there’s no hurry (and I may not switch even then).

There’s an unfortunate tendency for people who like to have the newest and greatest software to assume that the old code their new-shiny is supposed to replace is broken. That’s seldom actually the case: if the old software has been performing correctly all this time, it’s usually still good for its original use case and within the scope of its original limitations and environment. It only becomes truly broken when the appropriate environment can’t be easily reproduced or one of the limitations becomes a significant security hole.

That doesn’t mean that shiny new software with new features is bad, or that there isn’t some old software that has never quite performed properly, just that if it ain’t broke, it’s okay to set a conservative upgrade schedule.

nyan,

Reading between the lines on the gentoo-dev mailing list, I gather that the old system just was not working very well, with friction between the Foundation and the technical side of the distro.

Help with HDD

I have a 4TB HDD that I use to store music, films, images, and text files. I have a 250GB SDD that I use to install my OS and video games. So far I didn’t have any problem with this setup, obviously it’s a bit slower when it reads the HDD but nothing too serious, but lately it’s gotten way worse, where it just lags too...

nyan,

I’ve got a 6TB SATA HDD (also formatted ext4) and while files on it don’t always open instantaneously, the pause is only a fraction of a second at most (barely enough to notice). So I’ll join the chorus suggesting you check for hardware issues—bad drive, bad or loose cables, or a bad controller on the mobo.

nyan,

Simply put, no one with the necessary skills has come forward and demonstrated the willingness to do the work. No programmer I’ve ever met enjoys wrestling with other people’s crufty old code. It isn’t fun, it isn’t creative, and it’s often an exercise in, “What the unholy fsck was whoever wrote this thinking, and where did I put the ‘Bang head here’ mousepad?” So getting volunteers to mop out the bilges only happens when someone really wants to keep a particular piece of software working. It’s actually more difficult than getting people to contribute to a new project.

So getting rid of X’s accumulated legacy cruft isn’t impossible, but I suspect someone would need to set up the “Clean up X” foundation and offer money for it to actually happen. (I’m no happier about that than you, by the way.)

nyan,

Wayland has better support for some newer in-demand features, like multiple monitors, very high resolutions, and scaling. It’s also carrying less technical debt around, and has more people actively working on it. However, it still has issues with nvidia video cards, and there are still a few pieces of uncommon software that won’t work with it.

The only alternative is X. Its main advantage over Wayland is network transparency (essentially it can be its own remote client/server system), which is important for some use cases. And it has no particular issues with nvidia. However, it’s essentially in maintenance mode—bugs are patched, but no new features are being added—and the code is old and crufty.

If you want the network transparency, have an nvidia card (for now), or want to use one of the rare pieces of software that doesn’t work with Wayland/XWayland, use X. Otherwise, use whatever your distro provides, which is Wayland for most of the large newbie-friendly distros.

nyan,

My first step is usually to figure out whether the package should exist as a separate entity under Gentoo (which, for instance, doesn’t have separate dev packages). Then I check the overlay masterlist to see if there’s an unofficial package (which there often is).

If there is no package, I can package it myself (since I’ve been working with the same distro for years and can handle the basic packaging cases), install from source, get the .deb and apply alien or deb2targz and proceed from there, or give the whole thing up as a bad job.

nyan,

You sometimes can build software that will work with more than one version of a C library, but less and less software is being written that binds only to C libraries. The key topic you want to look up is probably “ABI stability”.

nyan,

Start with a minimalist distro that ships without any desktop environment, of which there are many.

nyan,

Which is why Electron reminds me of a little kid who’s just done some extremely difficult but utterlly pointless thing.

Websites belong in a browser. If it doesn’t work in any random standards-compliant browser, then you should be delivering it as a true native application, not some horrific fiji-mermaid-esque hybrid.

nyan,

Sometimes raising the barrier to entry is a good thing.

Many Electron applications I’ve run across don’t make even a try at loading system settings. For me, that causes accessibility issues related to photosensitivity. For some reason, feeling like I’ve been stabbed in the eyeball when I try to open a program does not endear me to it or its framework.

No application at all is actually better than something built on Electron, as far as I’m concerned, because then there’s a chance that someone, somewhere, might fill in the gap with software I can actually use.

Electron needs to either actually provide the basics of native functionality, or go away.

Will antivirus be more significant on Linux desktop after this xz-util backdoor?

I understand that no Operating System is 100% safe. Although this backdoor is likely only affects certain Linux desktop users, particularly those running unstable Debian or testing builds of Fedora (like versions 40 or 41), **Could this be a sign that antivirus software should be more widely used on Linux desktops? ** ( I know...

nyan,

In the specific case of xz-utils, many lazy people would never have been at risk because the issue is limited to xz-utils 5.6.x (a quite recent version). Not updating provided (unusually) a mitigation in this case.

nyan,

Well, I can still boot my system without an initram (although that isn’t just due to the kernel config)—does that count?

Other than that, custom kernels free up a small amount of disk space that would otherwise be taken up by modules for driving things like CANbus, and taught me a whole lot about the existence of hardware and protocols that I will never use.

nyan,

Gentoo + OpenRC + TDE (therefore X) on both a first-gen Threadripper desktop with 96GB RAM and a laptop from 2008 with an Athlon64x2 processor and 2GB RAM. Updating gcc on the laptop can take a while, but it still serves well enough. Plus a couple of headless Pis that are also running Gentoo. Not overly unusual, but I may well have the only Threadripper of that gen running that specific distro and DE combination anywhere in the world, since each individual item is kind of low probability.

nyan,

Well, you do have to feed, er, update it at least every six months if you don’t want to be left with an unholy mess to clean up.

nyan,

Six months is the max that’s supposed to be supported. (Longest no-update period I’ve ever sorted out was twelve months. Possible, but time-consuming.)

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