Even_Adder

@Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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Even_Adder,

You should check out this article by Kit Walsh, a senior staff attorney at the EFF. The EFF is a digital rights group who recently won a historic case: border guards now need a warrant to search your phone.

Mainly:

First, copyright law doesn’t prevent you from making factual observations about a work or copying the facts embodied in a work (this is called the “idea/expression distinction”). Rather, copyright forbids you from copying the work’s creative expression in a way that could substitute for the original, and from making “derivative works” when those works copy too much creative expression from the original.

Second, even if a person makes a copy or a derivative work, the use is not infringing if it is a “fair use.” Whether a use is fair depends on a number of factors, including the purpose of the use, the nature of the original work, how much is used, and potential harm to the market for the original work.

and

Even if a court concludes that a model is a derivative work under copyright law, creating the model is likely a lawful fair use. Fair use protects reverse engineering, indexing for search engines, and other forms of analysis that create new knowledge about works or bodies of works. Here, the fact that the model is used to create new works weighs in favor of fair use as does the fact that the model consists of original analysis of the training images in comparison with one another.

And Valve has officially taken the opposite side of what you said, Valve will now allow the vast majority of games AI-generated content on Steam where it didn’t before.

Even_Adder,

This person is so wrong it’s basically misinformation.

Even_Adder,

If we’re talking open source models, it’s because a lot of the people fine-tuning them are Asian, and have that bias.

Even_Adder,

It’s really hard getting dark skin sometimes. A lot of the time it’s not even just the model, LoRAs and Textual Inversions make the skin lighter again so you have to try even harder. It’s going to take conscious effort from people to tune models that are inclusive. With the way media is biased right now, I feel like it’s going to take a lot of effort.

Even_Adder,

I wouldn’t mind. I’m here for it.

Even_Adder,

You don’t need that many parameters, 4gb checkpoints work just fine.

Even_Adder,

I’m saying SD 1.5 and SDXL capture the concepts just fine, it’s just during fine-tuning people train away some of the diversity.

Even_Adder, (edited )

They are VERY mad about mods.

Even_Adder,

The link should work now, but I also found out they were doing this.

Even_Adder,

When people say that the “model is learning from its training data”, it means just that, not that it is human, and not that it learns exactly humans. It doesn’t make sense to judge boats on how well they simulate human swimming patterns, just how well they perform their task.

Every human has the benefit of as a baby training on things around them and being trained by those around them, building a foundation for all later skills. Generative models rely on many text and image pairs to describe things to them because they lack the ability to poke, prod, rotate, and disassemble for themselves.

For example, when a model takes in a thousand images of circles, it doesn’t “learn” a thousand circles. It learns what circle GENERALLY is like, the concept of it. That representation, along with random noise, is how you create images with them. The same happens for every concept the model trains on. Everything from “cat” to more complex things like color relationships and reflections or lighting. Machines are not human, but they can learn despite that.

Even_Adder,

It isn’t wrong to use copyrighted works for training. Let me quote an article by the EFF here:

First, copyright law doesn’t prevent you from making factual observations about a work or copying the facts embodied in a work (this is called the “idea/expression distinction”). Rather, copyright forbids you from copying the work’s creative expression in a way that could substitute for the original, and from making “derivative works” when those works copy too much creative expression from the original.

Second, even if a person makes a copy or a derivative work, the use is not infringing if it is a “fair use.” Whether a use is fair depends on a number of factors, including the purpose of the use, the nature of the original work, how much is used, and potential harm to the market for the original work.

and

Even if a court concludes that a model is a derivative work under copyright law, creating the model is likely a lawful fair use. Fair use protects reverse engineering, indexing for search engines, and other forms of analysis that create new knowledge about works or bodies of works. Here, the fact that the model is used to create new works weighs in favor of fair use as does the fact that the model consists of original analysis of the training images in comparison with one another.

What you want would swing the doors open for corporate interference like hindering competition, stifling unwanted speech, and monopolization like nothing we’ve seen before. There are very good reasons people have these rights, and we shouldn’t be trying to change this. Ultimately, it’s apparent to me, you are in favor of these things. That you believe artists deserve a monopoly on ideas and non-specific expression, to the detriment of anyone else. If I’m wrong, please explain to me how.

If we’re going by the number of pixels being viewed, then you have to use the same measure for both humans and AIs - and because AIs have to look at billions of images while humans do not, the AI still requires far more pixels than a human does.

Humans benefit from years of evolutionary development and corporeal bodies to explore and interact with their world before they’re ever expected to produce complex art. AI need huge datasets to understand patterns to make up for this disadvantage. Nobody pops out of the womb with fully formed fine motor skills, pattern recognition, understanding of cause and effect, shapes, comparison, counting, vocabulary related to art, and spatial reasoning. Datasets are huge and filled with image-caption pairs to teach models all of this from scratch. AI isn’t human, and we shouldn’t judge it against them, just like we don’t judge boats on their rowing ability.

And humans don’t require the most modern art in order to learn to draw at all. Sure, if they want to compete with modern artists, they would need to look at modern artists (for which educational fair use exists, and again the quantity of art being used by the human for this purpose is massively lower than what an AI uses - a human does not need to consume billions of artworks from modern artists in order to learn what the current trends are). But a human could learn to draw, paint, sculpt, etc purely by only looking at public domain and creative commons works, because the process for drawing, say, the human figure (with the right number of fingers!) has not changed in hundreds of years. A human can also just… go outside and draw things they see themselves, because the sky above them and the tree across the street aren’t copyrighted. And in fact, I’d argue that a good artist should go out and find real things to draw.

AI don’t require most modern art in order to learn to make images either, but the range of expression would be limited, just like a human’s in this situation. You can see this in cave paintings and early sculptures. They wouldn’t be limited to this same degree, but you would still be limited.

It took us 100,000 years to get from cave drawings to Leonard Da Vinci. This is just another step for artists, like Camera Obscura was in the past. It’s important to remember that early man was as smart as we are, they just lacked the interconnectivity to exchange ideas that we have.

https://i.imgur.com/bfLE2kM.png

Even_Adder,

I don’t understand what you mean, can you elaborate?

Even_Adder,

I understand. I didn’t mean to imply any sort of understanding with the language I used.

Even_Adder,

I think the difference in artistic expression between modern humans and humans in the past comes down to the material available (like the actual material to draw with).

That is definitely a difference, but even that is a kind of information shared between people, and information itself is what gives everyone something to build on. That gives them a basis on which to advance understanding, instead of wasting time coming up with the same things themselves every time.

Humans can draw without seeing any image ever. Blind people can create art and draw things because we have a different understanding of the world around us than AI has. No human artist needs to look at a thousand or even at 1 picture of a banana to draw one.

Humans don’t need representations of things in images because they have the opportunity to interact with the genuine article, and in situations when that is impractical, they can still fall back on images to learn. Someone without sight from birth can’t create art the same way a sighted person can.

The way AI sees and “understands” the world and how it generates an image is fundamentally different from how the human brain conveys the object banana into an image of a banana.

That’s the beauty of it all, despite that, these models can still output bananas.

Even_Adder,

Reverse engineering isn’t stealing.

Video game actors speak out after union announces AI voice deal (www.videogameschronicle.com)

According to SAG AFTRA, the deal will “enable Replica to engage SAG-AFTRA members under a fair, ethical agreement to safely create and license a digital replica of their voice. Licensed voices can be used in video game development and other interactive media projects from pre-production to final release.”...

Even_Adder,

They’re not giving up though, what they’re doing is getting ahead of it. Assuming their deal is favorable for their members, they’re making it so that anyone who wants SAG-AFTRA synth voices has to go through their contracted company which they have collective bargaining power or strike an equal or better deal. Along with blacklisting companies from SAG-AFTRA work that use non-union synth voices.

This is way better than leaving actors on their own to bargain with companies, which would have definitely happened. Rather than have companies wear individuals down and drive pay down, they get to dictate the terms, together.

SAG-AFTRA and Replica Studios Introduce Groundbreaking AI Voice Agreement at CES (www.sagaftra.org)

this agreement is causing a great deal of distaste in VA spaces this week, perhaps best exemplified by this tweet which asserts that the deal was not sent to membership. as far as i can tell through the grapevine a lot of VAs concur that this was foist upon them suddenly and they were given no chance to vote on it or similar,...

Even_Adder,

Is there a limit to how many jobs a person can take?

Even_Adder,

Pretty cool. I almost had to start liking Epic Store for not having such a dumb stance. The disclaimer on games using generative content is weird, but it’s a solid step forward.

Even_Adder,

AI generated content has a lot of unanswered legal questions around it which can lead to a lot of headache with moderation and possibility of illegal content showing up (remember that not only “well meaning” devs will use these tools). It’s seems reasonable for a company to try minimize the risk.

There were never any unanswered legal questions would prevent you from being able to use generated assets in a game. That’s why Valve’s old stance was so odd. I’m not sure what you mean by the possibility for illegal content, can you elaborate?

Even_Adder,

I remember there being a lot of uncertainty about the legality of what and how can('t) be used in training models (especially when used for commercial purposes) - has that been settled in any way? I think there was also a case of not being able to copyright AI generated content due to lack of human authorship (I’d have to look for an article on this one as it’s been a while) - this obviously won’t be a problem if generated assets are used as a base to be worked upon.

In the United States, the Authors Guild v. Google case established that Google’s use of copyrighted material in its books search constituted fair use. Most people agree this will apply to generative models as well since the nature of the use is highly transformative.

I recommend reading this article by Kit Walsh, a senior staff attorney at the EFF from April last year if you haven’t already. The EFF is a digital rights group who recently won a historic case: border guards now need a warrant to search your phone.

Works involving the use of AI are copyrightable, but just like everything else, it depends. It’s also important to remember the Copyright Office guidance isn’t law. Their guidance reflects only the office’s interpretation based on its experience, it isn’t binding in the courts or other parties. Guidance from the office is not a substitute for legal advice, and it does not create any rights or obligations for anyone. They are the lowest rung on the ladder for deciding what law means.

As for illegal content - Valve mentioned it in regards to live-generated stuff. I assume they’re worried about possibility of plagiarism and things going against their ToS, which is why they ask about guardrails used in such systems. On a more general note, there were also cases of AI articles coming up with fake stories with accusations of criminal behavior involving real people - this probably won’t be a problem with AI usage in games (I hope anyway) but it’s another sensitive topic devs using such tools have to keep in mind.

I agree live generated stuff could get developers in trouble. With pre-generated assets you can make sure ahead of time everything is above board, but that’s not really possible when you have users influencing what content appears in your game. If they were going to ban anything, the original ban should have been limited to just this.

Even_Adder, (edited )

The one I kind of remembered (even though only partially) was the Reuters article, which contains this quote I was referring to:

The office reiterated Wednesday that copyright protection depends on the amount of human creativity involved, and that the most popular AI systems likely do not create copyrightable work.

This was likely in reference to Midjourney, which was the system in question in its ruling. Midjourney, even for its time had very rudimentary user controls way behind the open standards that likely didn’t impress the registrar.

There’s also a spectrum of involvement depending on what tool you’re using. I know with web based interfaces don’t allow for a lot of freedom due to wanting to keep users from generating things outside their terms of use, but with open source models based on Stable Diffusion you can get a lot more involved and get a lot more freedom. We’re in a completely different world from March 2023 as far as generative tools go.

Take a look at the difference between a Midjourney prompt and a Stable Diffusion prompt.

Midjourney:

a 80s hollywood sci-fi movie poster of a gigantic lemming attacking a city, with the title “Attack of the Lemmy!!” --ar 3:5 --v 6.0

Stable Diffusion:

sarasf, 1girl, solo, robe, long sleeves, white footwear, smile, wide sleeves, closed mouth, blush, looking at viewer, sitting, tree stump, forest, tree, sky, traditional media, 1990s (style), <lora:sarasf_V2-10:0.7>

Negative prompt: (worst quality, low quality:1.4), FastNegativeV2

Steps: 21, VAE: kl-f8-anime2.ckpt, Size: 512x768, Seed: 2303584416, Model: Based64mix-V3-Pruned, Version: v1.6.0, Sampler: DPM++ 2M Karras, VAE hash: df3c506e51, CFG scale: 6, Clip skip: 2, Model hash: 98a1428d4c, Hires steps: 16, “sarasf_V2-10: 1ca692d73fb1”, Hires upscale: 2, Hires upscaler: 4x_foolhardy_Remacri, “FastNegativeV2: a7465e7cc2a2”,

ADetailer model: face_yolov8n.pt, ADetailer version: 23.11.1, Denoising strength: 0.38, ADetailer mask blur: 4, ADetailer model 2nd: Eyes.pt, ADetailer confidence: 0.3, ADetailer dilate erode: 4, ADetailer mask blur 2nd: 4, ADetailer confidence 2nd: 0.3, ADetailer inpaint padding: 32, ADetailer dilate erode 2nd: 4, ADetailer denoising strength: 0.42, ADetailer inpaint only masked: True, ADetailer inpaint padding 2nd: 32, ADetailer denoising strength 2nd: 0.43, ADetailer inpaint only masked 2nd: True

To break down a bit of what’s going on here, I’d like to explain some of the elements found here.

sarasf is the token for the LoRA of the character in this image, and <lora:sarasf_V2-10:0.7> is the character LoRA for Sarah from Shining Force II. LoRA are like supplementary models you use on top of a base model to capture a style or concept, like a patch. Some LoRA don’t have activation tokens, and some with them can be used without their token to get different results.

The .07 in <lora:sarasf_V2-10:0.7> refers to the strength at which the weights from the LoRA are applied to the output. Lowering the number causes the concept to manifest weaker in the output. You can blend styles this way with just the base model or multiple LoRA at the same time at different strengths. You can even take a monochrome LoRA and take the weight into the negative to get some crazy colors.

The Negative Prompt is where you include things you don’t want in your image. (worst quality, low quality:1.4), here have their attention set to 1.4, attention is sort of like weight, but for tokens. LoRA bring their own weights to add onto the model, whereas attention on tokens works completely inside the weights they’re given. In this negative prompt FastNegativeV2 is an embedding known as a Textual Inversion. It’s sort of like a crystallized collection of tokens that tell the model something precise you want without having to enter the tokens yourself or mess around with the attention manually. Embeddings you put in the negative prompt are known as Negative Embeddings.

In the next part, Steps stands for how many steps you want the model to take to solve the starting noise into an image. More steps take longer.

VAE is the name of the Variational Autoencoder used in this generation. The VAE is responsible for working with the weights to make each image unique. A mismatch of VAE and model can yield blurry and desaturated images, so some models opt to have their VAE baked in,

Size is the dimensions in pixels the image will be generated at.

Seed is the number representation of the starting noise for the image. You need this to be able to reproduce a specific image.

Model is the name of the model used, and Sampler is the name of the algorithm that solves the noise into an image. There are a few different samplers, each with their own trade-offs for speed, quality, and memory usage.

CFG is basically how close you want the model to follow your prompt. Some models can’t handle high CFG values and flip out, giving over-exposed or nonsense output.

Hires steps represents the amount of steps you want to take on the second pass to upscale the output. This is necessary to get higher resolution images without visual artifacts. Hires upscaler is the name of the model that was used during the upscaling step, and again there are a ton of those with their own trade-offs and use cases.

After ADetailer are the parameters for Adetailer, an extension that does a post-process pass to fix things like broken anatomy, faces, and hands. We’ll just leave it at that because I don’t feel like explaining all the different settings found there.

https://i.imgur.com/uAMbOUv.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/yjF1p0j.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/4uQfgR4.png

youtu.be/-JQDtzSaAuA?t=97

youtu.be/1d_jns4W1cM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtbEuERXSqk

Even_Adder,

You’re very welcome. My head still hurts.

Even_Adder,

Someone else.

Even_Adder,

Yeah, I wonder if there’s a maximum number of jobs you can take?

Even_Adder,

Can’t you just spoof different hardware though?

Even_Adder,

50 FPS is a real dealbreaker.

Even_Adder,

I feel for the PAL region folks who had to suffer through those dark times.

The activist who’s taking on artificial intelligence in the courts: ‘This is the fight of our lives’ (english.elpais.com)

The American Matthew Butterick has started a legal crusade against generative artificial intelligence (AI). In 2022, he filed the first lawsuit in the history of this field against Microsoft, one of the companies that develop these types of tools (GitHub Copilot). Today, he’s coordinating four class action lawsuits that bring...

Even_Adder,

Their problem was that they smashed too many looms and not enough capitalists. AI training isn’t just for big corporations. We shouldn’t applaud people that put up barriers that will make it prohibitively expensive to for regular people to keep up. This will only help the rich and give corporations control over a public technology.

Even_Adder,

I recommend reading this article by Kit Walsh, a senior staff attorney at the EFF if you haven’t already. The EFF is a digital rights group who most recently won a historic case: border guards now need a warrant to search your phone.

People are trying to conjour up new rights to take another piece of the public’s right and access to information. To fashion themselves as new owner class. Artists and everyone else should accept that others have the same rights as they do, and they can’t now take those opportunities from other people because it’s their turn now.

There’s already a model trained on just Creative Commons licensed data, but you don’t see them promoting it. That’s because it was not about the data, it’s an attack on their status, and when asked about generators that didn’t use their art, they came out overwhelmingly against with the same condescending and reductive takes they’ve been using this whole time.

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/b86c9c91-dd87-46ae-8e8b-1799cbd92e57.png

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/662d3ad8-081f-4789-a584-87e68884b0f9.png

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/05cac63b-2176-4720-9265-6e822e1a5a86.png

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/c9dd65a1-ec32-43a9-bd12-caa0cb51827b.png

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/ff268cda-deee-4966-83d6-10e1201d90b0.png

I believe that generative art, warts and all, is a vital new form of art that is shaking things up, challenging preconceptions, and getting people angry - just like art should.

Even_Adder,

I’m actually fine with generative AI that uses only public domain and creative commons content. I’m not threatened by AI as a creative, because AI can only iterate on its own training data. Only humans can create something genuinely new and original.

I don’t like this kind of thought because it tries to minimize the role of the person at the controls. There is no reason why a person using a model trained on 1400s art, African art, anime, photography, cubism, sculpture, cullinary art, impressionism, nature, and ancient Greco-Roman etc. wouldn’t be able to come up with novel concepts, executions, and styles, since it’s very much a combination of styles that gives rise to new types of art in all other mediums. And that’s before you even start fine-tuning on your own stuff.

My objection is solely on the basis of theft. If we agree that everybody has the basic right to control their own data and content, than that logically has to extend to artists: they must have the right to control their own work, and consenting to humans viewing it isn’t the same as consenting to having it fed into an AI.

It isn’t like a human viewing it, but it is very like other protected uses of data. To quote the article:

Fair use protects reverse engineering, indexing for search engines, and other forms of analysis that create new knowledge about works or bodies of works. Here, the fact that the model is used to create new works weighs in favor of fair use as does the fact that the model consists of original analysis of the training images in comparison with one another.

This is just a way to analyze and reverse engineer concepts in images so you can make your own original works. Reverse engineering has been fair use since Sega Enterprises Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc in 1992, and then affirmed in Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. v. Connectix Corporation.

In the US, fair use balances the interests of copyright holders with the public’s right to access and use information. There are rights people can maintain over their work, and the rights they do not maintain have always been to the benefit of self-expression and discussion. There are just some things you can’t stop people from doing with things you’ve shared with them, and we shouldn’t be trying to change that.

Calling this stealing is self-serving, manipulative rhetoric that unjustly vilifies people and misrepresents the reality of how these models work and how creative the people who use them can be.

Even_Adder, (edited )

If the models were purely being used for research, I might buy the argument that fair use applies. But the fair use balancing act also incorporates an element of whether the usage is commercial in nature and is intended to compete with the rights holder in a way that affects their livelihood. Taking an artist’s work in order to mass produce pieces that replicates their style, in such a way that it prevents the artist from earning a living, definitely affects their livelihood, so there is a very solid argument that fair use ceased to apply when the generative AI entered commercial use.

Fair Use also protects commercial endeavors. Fair use is a flexible and context-dependent doctrine based on careful analysis of four factors: the purpose and character of the use, the nature of the copyrighted work, the amount and substantiality of the portion used, and the effect of the use upon the potential market. No one factor is more important than the others, and it is possible to have a fair use defense even if you do not meet all the criteria of fair use.

More importantly, I don’t think more works in a style would prevent an artist from making a living. IMO, it could serve as an ad to point people where to get “the genuine article”.

The people that made the AI models aren’t engaging in self-expression at this point. The users of the AI models may be, but they’re not the ones that used all the art without consent or compensation. The companies running the AI models are engaged purely in profit-seeking, making money from other people’s work. That’s not self-expression and it’s not discussion. It’s greed.

Agreed, but don’t forget that there are plenty of regular people training their own models and offering them to everyone for free who don’t have a company apparatus to defend them, and they are targeted and not spared this ire.

Although the courts ruled that reverse engineering software to make an emulator was fair use, it’s worth bearing in mind that the emulator is intended to allow people to continue using software they have purchased after the lifespan of the console has elapsed - so the existence of an emulator is preserving consumers’ rights to use the games they legally own. Taking artists’ work to create an AI so you no longer need the artist has more in common with pirating the games rather than creating an emulator. You’re not trying to preserve access to something you already have a licence to use. An AI isn’t replacing artwork that you have the right to use but that you can no longer access because of changing hardware. AI is allowing you to use an artist’s work in order to cut them out of the equation without you ever paying them for the work you have benefitted from.

Making novel works has nothing in common with reproducing and distributed someone else’s creation. It is preserving the public’s rights to self-expression, no matter the medium. No artist can insert themselves in the conversation over a style to try to collect payment. Imagine if every one of their inspirations did the same to them?

The AI models can combine concepts in new ways, but it still can’t create anything truly new. An AI could never have given us something like Cubism, for example, because visually nothing like it had ever existed before, so there would have been nothing in its training data that could have made anything like it.

Cubism is, in part, a combination of the simplified and angular forms of ancient Iberian sculptures, the stylized and abstract features of African tribal masks, and the flat and decorative compositions of Japanese prints. Nothing like it existed before because no one had combined those specific concepts quite yet.

What a human brings to the process is life experience and an emotional component that an AI lacks.

It is still a human making generative art, and they can use their emotions and learned experiences to guide the creation of works. The model is just a tool to be harnessed by people.

All an AI can do is combine existing concepts into new combinations (like combining fried eggs and flowers - both of those objects are existing concepts). It can’t create entirely new things that aren’t represented somewhere in its training data. If it didn’t know what fried eggs and flowers were, it would be unable to create them.

New tools have already made what you’re talking about possible, and they will continue to improve.

Even_Adder,

Yeah, I just want to let you know where I’m coming from. I hope I’ve made that clear.

Even_Adder,

The different color-blind modes look pretty cool. Maybe the striped silhouettes don’t bother the people they’re meant to help?

nitter.net/itwhiffed/status/1739898999199744220

Even_Adder,

Too few people have heard his theme song from Mobius Final Fantasy.

youtu.be/XRY9GxTYrz8

Even_Adder,

The rest of the soundtrack is great too, It was my favorite gacha I played, probably because it was the least exploitative gacha I’ve ever played. Sadly, it wasn’t doing too well and shut down in 2020 as development for Final Fantasy VII Remake was ramping up, and they need all hands on deck in Business Division 1.

Even_Adder,

Games are also banned from offering probability-based lucky draw features to minors, and from enabling the speculation and auction of virtual gaming items.

I hope they’re serious.

Even_Adder,

Yeah, but now we get to be robbed of a feature, like we were when Namco patented playing mini-games on loading screens. We needn’t have suffered as much during the worst years of loading.

Even_Adder,

I don’t think we can let the current big AI players regulate themselves, but the ESRB hasn’t been too bad at doing its job.

Even_Adder,

They were spawned to stop the government from regulating video game content thanks to games like Mortal Kombat and Night Trap.

Even_Adder,

I get you.

Even_Adder,

This author is a serious prude. They have an interesting definition of Otaku and makes it seem as if all doujin were porn.

Even_Adder,

The guy’s a turd on Twitter. I think he’s just not-so-secretly just not a great guy. There’s probably a good reason he got fired.

Even_Adder,

Nintendo’s cheaping out on their customers again. Imagine having modern looking Nintendo games again?

Even_Adder,

It’s going to be PS4 at varying lower resolutions. It could have looked a lot better.

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