I’d rather argue they are willing to do so - in the hope for permanent ceasefire and peace. Anything to stop the bombing, dying, starvation and everything else.
CAIRO, June 11 (Reuters) - Hamas accepts a UN Security Council ceasefire resolution and is ready to negotiate over the details, senior Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters on Tuesday, adding that it was up to Washington to ensure that Israel abides by it....
Israel has vowed to persist with its military operation in Gaza, saying it won’t engage in “meaningless” negotiations with Hamas, shortly after the United Nations Security Council overwhelmingly approved a US-backed ceasefire plan intended to bring an end to the eight-month war.
The senior diplomat said the war would not end until all hostages were returned and Hamas’ capabilities were “dismantled,” accusing the Palestinian militant group of using “endless negotiations… as a means to stall for time.”
You seem to be an Israel-supporter that is okay with the genocide.
Wanting to stop the genocide and want Israel to stop killing innocent civilians (men, women and children) is not supporting Hamas in anyway.
It is however, standing for human rights. Rights to live, rights to have a normal human condition (a home, a land, a place to be, having education and everything that’s available for humanity).
If you really want to go that way;
Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.
So the only one to blame for Hamas existing is Israel themselves.
EDIT: Checking upon your comment history, yeah. You’re definitely a Israel-supporter and probably a Zionist. I recommend anyone to check his comment history.
I don’t support the indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza territory by the IDF. The IDF should practice restraint and act in a way to minimize civil casualties.
Your comments contradict one another. You say this here but your other comments give a whole different mindset.
But, consider that the Hamas militants deliberately use civilian buildings (hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.) as their military bases, and try their best to blend in with the civilians, when international law dictates all combatants in a war should be wearing uniforms so as to avoid mixing civilians in the skirmishes.
This doesn’t matter much. Because Israel have bombed refugee camps where Hamas didn’t even went to. Israel is bombing anyone who’s a Palestinian, heck even journalists. The argument of “Hamas is using humans as shields” is an old excuse.
Would Israel bomb their own hospitals, schools, refugee camps and all that if Hamas was within Israel? (bet not).
Under those circumstances, and knowing that until the Hamas is anhilated there won’t be true peace for Israeli civilians (risk of new missile attacks), it’s only natural that Israel will keep pressuring for the destruction on Hamas.
You see the old argument of “Hamas being destroyed” does not work at all. Israel killing innocent civilians creates more hatred against Israel as a whole. It means that anyone who’s a Palestinian and lost their entire land, home, friends, acquaintances and family will high likely join Hamas to get vengeance. Now, guess whose fault is for children joining Hamas after losing everything they ever cared for? Israel.
Will there be collateral damage? Sure, like all wars there will be. Especially when Hamas is doing its best to maximize civilian casualties so the useful idiots in the west take pity on them.
36 000 innocent civilians is not collateral damage. Its purposefully murdering innocent Palestinian people, its genocide and all the evidence backs it up.
It is not Hamas who’s bombing refugee camps, hospitals, schools, homes and any place that a Palestinian is. It is Israel. You’re good on pointing fingers but there’s zero factual evidence.
Should Israel be scrutinized for their effectiveness in minimizing civilian casualties? Sure. But I don’t think that we, living comfortably in countries in which there’s no neighbouring nation trying to send missiles at us, should be in a position to demand they cease the war just because we want them to, or pressure them to accept any ceasefire deal that’s not good for them. It’s primarily up to Israel to decide what’s best for the security of their citizens. And also for the security of their soldiers, which have families awaiting for their safe return home when this war’s over.
You do realize from the moment Israel become a state, Israel has never lived in actual peace? They stole the land, displaced 750 000, murdered thousands of people. Set fires to homes, good and everything else. Placed mines so Palestinians cannot return.
This “war” didn’t start on 7 October 2023 neither somewhere in 2020. It started the moment Israel decided to murder and steal everything the Palestinian people owned.
The ceasefire deal is a joke to begin with. 6 weeks ceasefire and then they’ll continue bombing the entirety of Gaza again. Its needs to be permanent. Israel has to be held accountable for their actions (genocide).
Israel want 100% safety? Well, should not have stolen the land, displaced thousands of Palestinian people, murdering, Apartheid system, discrimination. And for everything I say here; I can link sources if you want. It’ll be tomorrow though, not on PC. But I will if you ask me to.
In this scenario, I’d not blame the IDF if they’re a little more trigger-happy than we would feel it’s reasonable. It’s easy for us to judge when we’re safe and sound in our countries. But the soldiers are human too and they’ll do what’s best to preserve their lives. If a neighbouring country launched missiles against my country, I’m sorry for sounding cold, but I’d rather they die them my people die. Of course, I’d prefer if the military acted in a way to minimize casualties so as to preserve the innocent, but if being too careful in this quest endangers the soldiers of my country, I’d prefer my soldiers enhance their survival rate a little more than grant this benefit to the nation that attacked me first.
It has nothing to do with “easy to judge”.
There’s lots and lots of evidence. Documents, videos, articles and even actual ex-IDF soldiers speaking out.
IDF soldiers are always “happy to trigger their gun” since day one. Not just now.
Certainly soldiers are humans to but these soldiers are killing innocent civilians. They’re smiling, joking, stealing everything from the Palestinians. They’re recording themselves. The videos are all over Instagram.
They let children and other people signature their bombs with cruel words like “kill them all” which I can give a source for as well.
There’s in no way defending their atrocities. No matter how bad you want to.
Like I said, you’re an Israel-supporter and by your other comments in others thread, a possible Zionist.
I already told you; Israel is the core reason as to why Hamas even exist.
When they chant “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”, what do you think they want? Israel is located between said river and sea, so they want to exterminate all Israeli so the land is all theirs. The extermination of all Jews is codified in written form in the Hamas Constitution.
You just love to spread immense misinformation.
You should actually educate yourself in this particular matter if you want to write and speak on the slogan. Don’t just blabber your personal opinion, give sources. Your personal opinion doesn’t matter, actual evidence does.
Not only that, do you know that Israel has made a slogan exactly like that too. So by your definition; Israel wants to exterminate all Palestinian people (and they’re currently doing so with the genocide)
If there are people there who only want to advocate for the Two State Solution for Israel/Palestine, that’s a fair point to make. But when these people, knowingly or unknowingly, mix themselves with people that carry Hamas flags and chant “from the river to the sea”, then they’re either useful idiots, or they’re pro-Hamas while using the pro-Palestine cause as a cop out.
Israel flat out said they do NOT want a two state solution.
Also explain to us; what is a Hamas flag? I have never heard about it nor seen one. I have only seen the Palestine flag. So tell us, show us and give us actual evidence with reliable sources.
You lie, spread misinformation and give ZERO reliable sources/ evidence.
According to Wikipedia article for “From the river to the sea”: "Many Palestinian activists have called it “a call for peace and equality” after decades of Israeli military rule over Palestinians while for Jews it is seen as a call for the “destruction” of Israel. Islamist militant faction Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel, and the removal or extermination of its Jewish population." So it’s not as clear-cut as you suggested. It says some Palestinians define is as a call for peace, but even if it was taken as such in the past, nowadays I have the impression it’s mosly used as a defense of the destruction of Isreal. If it was just for the peace of Palestine, they’d use a more specific sentence because the way it’s pharsed it includes the Isreal territory in their intentions of “freedom”. But they want to be free from what? Free from the Israeli people presence? The article you linked kind of confirm what the Wikipedia article said: each side has an interpretation of what this sentece entails, but I’m more interested in the practical usage of the sentence today, and in my opinion it’s mostly anti-Isreal.
So first of all Wikipedia is not reliable at all. Anyone can edit Wikipedia pages. Here’s a link to Wikipedia’s own page about it. That said; where’s the article? You quote it but don’t give the actual link to it. That’s just air basically.
Once again your impression and opinions do not matter. Actual evidence does. What you think or get the impression out of it doesn’t mean anything. What the phrase stands directly, how was meant from the beginning does.
You’re not qualified for political discussions if, you cannot write without your personal opinions mixed in. Because that basically means, your entire discussion is biased.
But they want to be free from what? Free from the Israeli people presence?
This sentence right here just proved that you clearly have no idea what you’re writing about. They want to be free from Israel’s oppression. Be freed from the Apartheid system, be freed from purposefully murdering of their families, be able to anywhere they like. Have human rights, have an own land, a place to be. I have said this in my previous comment, I’m just repeating it since you apparently didn’t read it.
Israel stole the entire land that the Palestinian people owned, murdered thousands of Palestinian people, build an open-air prison for Palestinians people and you’re asking “be freed from what?”
Half of that wall, of text of yours can be dismissed because it’s only your personal opinion and nothing factual based. So again, your personal opinion doesn’t mean anything but factual evidence does.
Not only that, Israel has been refusing two-state solution even before the 7 October attack. Stop trying to blame this on Hamas.
It is also worth to think about the fact that Israel stole everything of the Palestinian people, murdered entire Palestinian families and then expect the Palestinian people to be “peaceful”. That’s just not do able. If peaceful revolution is not possible, violent revolution is inevitable.
Now about the “Hamas Flag”;
It’s not necessarily a Hamas flag. I don’t think you are able to read Arabic (do you? Genuine question).
The written text on the flag says “la ilaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah” which translates to “There’s no god but Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) is his messenger”.
It’s the Shahada of the Islamic religion (IE: Religious flag) and not a ”Hamas” flag. Yeah they’re using the Shahada, doesn’t mean they “own” the Shahada.
In every comment you give to people, you purposefully mix things up to confuse other people, throw your own personal opinions in, you don’t give reliable sources, you write about things you clearly have no idea about and you flat-out lie.
There’s nothing you can write to justify killing 36 000 people, the things that was said by Israeli officials and the lying of the Israeli government.
Note: use paragraphs next time, it’s not really easy to read a wall of text.
The main idea I’m trying to express is that the IDF should practice restraint where possible. If the restraint is at the cost of raising the risk of their opperations, I’d not blame them if they don’t restrain themselves as much as we, people that are safe and sound possibly in another continent, would think is reasonable.
You do realize that the IDF are a lot safer than the normal Palestinian civilians and even Hamas themselves? The IDF has billions of tanks, weapons and armory which are provided by US dollars. You are trying to justify murdering innocent civilians which is just not possible. You cannot justify killing over 36 000 normal civillians.
I’m not aware of all the movements of the IDF. When Isreal bombs any civilian building, they always claim it was being used as a Hamas hideout or a missile launching base. If there’s civilians casualities, it’s possible the Hamas forced them to remain there to act as human shield deterrent. If not, I see no reason for Isreal to waste their bombs on buildings where there’s no terrorists hiding. For now there’s no way to confirm things one way or another. If journalists died, we can’t confirm at the moment the IDF targeted them specifically or if it’s mere casuality of war (doing journlistic work in a war zone is risky, after all).
You are not aware of the movements that have been broadcasted on almost ever news-outlet? I call that nonsense. Then again if you are not aware if it, how are even able to write and speak about the particular matter? By this sentence you are basically saying; ‘’I do not know and, I’m ignorant. But I have opinions’’.
If you see no reason for Israel to bomb buildings and innocent civillians, you are either a very ignorant person or Zionist. Mayhap both. Because Israel wants the everything that the Palestinian people once owned. That’s widely known. There’s full of evidence all over the internet.
Once again; you really need to educate yourself in the history before even writing about it.
In this case, I think it would e much easier to identify the Hamas terrorists when they’re surrounded by people of another ethinicity, and when those people would gladly point out where’s the terrorist instead of being coerced to cooperate with Hamas. So I think Israel would not bomb the hospital.
This a load of nonsense and I will tell you why; Israel shot and killed the hostages themselves. Not only that, it’s not always easy to distinguish by ethnicity. Besides, you keep pretending as if normal civilians are cooperating with Hamas which gives you the excuse to claim that all Palestinians are Hamas.
So first; normal civilians are not Hamas. Secondly they are not cooperating with Hamas, they’re literally running away from the danger that Israel is creating. For example; Israel told the normal Palestinian refugees to seek safety in Rafah and guess? Israel bombed Rafah.
Even before the October 7th, Hamas was already fostering hatred for Israel in its population. The children were being indoctrinated from their school ages to hate Israel. Most humanitarian donations the Gazan government received from the UN and other countries they diverted for the construction of their tunnel system and missile launchers whenever possible. Contruction materials for building houses and schools were all used to build the tunnels they’re using now to hide from the IDF. The pipes for pumbling were used for missile launchers. Instead of using the international aid to develop their community, they used it for terrorist purposes. At this point, capitulating for the Hamas’ demands will not stop the hatred, because they were hateful long before October 7th. Israel saw that the only way to stop the future attacks is in a pragmatic way: destroying Hamas and its military e political capabilities, and making sure no future Gazan government shall have the military capability to attack Israel. How the’re gonna do it? I don’t know, but they’re adamant in doing it.
Yeah and why would Hamas have an immense hatred towards Israel? Let me repeat my previous comment which explains the hatred for Israel (gee, I have to once again repeat myself!);
‘’Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.’’
The children were being indoctrinated from their school ages to hate Israel
Huge claim, NO reliable source to provide. Which means, it can dismissed. The hatred for Israel is made by Israel themselves because of what I said here above.
Contruction materials for building houses and schools were all used to build the tunnels they’re using now to hide from the IDF. The pipes for pumbling were used for missile launchers. Instead of using the international aid to develop their community, they used it for terrorist purposes
Gee, giving money to a group that wants vengeance for what Israel has done since 1948 is being used for a preparation to strike back. How surprising! (sarcasm). You blame Hamas for everything and justify everything that Israel has been doing since 1948. You have double standards and its shining bright for everything to read.
You want Hamas to stop existing? Give the Palestinian people their right to live, their land and normal human conditions. It’s pretty simple.
These numbers were provided by the Hamas, which have an incentive to inflate it so as to exert pressure on Israel’s allies. I’m certain there’s no way for anyone to provide an accurate body count of casualities in this war, as it is ongoing, and there’s many bodies that might be under rubble. And as I said: it’s a Hamas tactic to use their citizens as human shields whenever possible. When they brag about the number of casualities, deep down they like when there’s more dead citizens, because for them it only represent necessary sacrifices for achieving one goal: pressure Israel allie’s to make Isreal stop their military advancement, so the Hamas can regroup and resume their missile strikes against Isreal territory at full force. For them this is a holy war: they just hate Isreal and want it gone. If they make Isreal back down and agree to a indefinite ceasefire, it’ll signal to the other enemies of Isreal (Hezbolah, Iran…) that they’re soft, and will encourage them to attack Isreal as well. Isreal is a country that’s surrounded by enemies that hate it, so they were forced to invest heavily in millitary defense systems, and make millitary conscription mandatory to both genders. Israel is the only democracy in a area brimming with autocracies and teocracies
Yet when Israel gives these numbers you immediately trust them, right? While its widely known throughout the entire world that Israel has been lying over, over and over again.
These numbers are not only said by Hamas but also by other official instances.
And as I said: it’s a Hamas tactic to use their citizens as human shields whenever possible.
‘’Hamas tactic’’ when there are videos of IDF actually using Palestinian people as shields.
For them this is a holy war: they just hate Isreal and want it gone
Another blatant LIE. Hamas was literally created because they wanted to have better living conditions. They want their land, homes and human rights back.
Isreal is a country that’s surrounded by enemies that hate it
Gee, stealing land gives you enemies! Who would have thought about that?! They decided to steal the land of the Palestinian people in 1948 which is in the Middle East. Gee, who would know that would get you surrounded by enemies?
I’m not extremelly familiar to the history of Isreal, but I don’t think it’s fair the Isrealli citizens of today pay for supposed mistakes of their ancestors from 70+ years ago. A ceasefire now would only benefit the Hamas and let them regroup with more weapons and ammo, and build new milittary outposts. I defend a indefinite ceasefire, but after Hamas is destroyed, of course. This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people. It just proves they don’t care for their people, they care for power. And if by apartheid system you mean border controls, so every country has such system because no serious country allows indiscriminate entry of foreigners in its borders without aplying some criteria first. And in Isreal, 20% of the population is of Arab descent and they enjoy full citizen status. Go ask them if they’re unhappy with the “Israelli regime” and if they’d rather go move to the Gaza strip.
I’m not extremelly familiar to the history of Isreal
This right here proved once again; You are writing ignorantly and only out of personal opinion. Anything you say can be dismissed immediately.
the Isrealli citizens of today pay for supposed mistakes of their ancestors from 70+ years ago
Happens when you stay in a land that was stolen 76 years ago and keep pretending as if it yours.
A ceasefire now would only benefit the Hamas and let them regroup with more weapons and ammo, and build new milittary outposts
It would actually benefit everyone. Israel citizens, Hamas, Palestinian people and even the entire world. But you seem to be unable to dig deeper than your personal opinion.
This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people
I will comment to this in my second comment since apparently, I cant write anymore in this one (seems I got to its limit)
This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people
This ‘’war’’ (genocide) will never be over. That’s the main issue. As long as Far-right extremsist have the power within Israel, they will continue; Apartheid system, discrimination, illegal settlements, unfair prison for Palestinians, murdering of Palestinians and everything else that has been going on for decades upon decades.
And if by apartheid system you mean border controls
Learn the history. You know, open a book instead of throwing uneducated biased personal opinions. I’m not going to educate you on 76 years of history. You got to do that yourself.
If there’s any misconduct among the IDF, of couse they should be called out and disciplined. I’m not saying it is a good thing to abuse vulnerable people during a war. But, let’s be honest, in all wars this kind of stuff happen. A bunch of guys are there in the open, with no law enforcement to contain them, under a high stress situation for it is a war and they might die at any moment. Of course they might regress to erratic behaviors. Maybe it’s fueled by rage for their people being attacked by Hamas? Maybe they’re taking out it on the citizens? I don’t know. I’ve never been a soldier to know.
Certainly and unfortunately things like these happens in every war/ genocide but that does not mean it should be allowed. It should not. Your argument here is; ‘’it happens in every war, so whatever’’. That’s such a lame and invalid excuse to justify their actions.
Maybe it’s fueled by rage for their people being attacked by Hamas
Mayhap indoctrination? Mayhap they just think ‘’we can do whatever we want because the world won’t do anything anyway’’. If they want Hamas to stop existing, attacking and all that. Give the land back, give the Palestinian people their rights and everything else that humans normally have.
Not only that, the leader of Hamas even said they would lay down their weapons if a independent Palestinian state is established:
Probably the fact that they started a war on Oct. 7th that they can’t win, as a starting point for escalation of conflict specifically.
So you are going to just ignore 76 years of history about this situation? Also Palestinians did not attack on 7 October 2023, it was Hamas. Normal Palestinian civilians are innocent. I will once again copy-past what, I said to another Lemmy user because it seems some particular people can’t (or won’t) do research themselves:
‘’Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.’’
If you want to go on the route ‘’who started this war’’; it’d be Israel and Britian who ‘’gave’’ the land to them.
that they can’t win, as a starting point for escalation of conflict specifically.
Obvious they cannot ‘win’ because it’s Israel state and the US country (US giving billions to Israel) versus a group of people. Hamas want their land, homes and humans right back.
The normal Palestinian civilians do not even want to fight at all. All they want is have human rights, be able to be free from occupation, torture. They don’t want to their entire families to be murdered out just because they’re Palestinians. It’s immensely bad what Hamas done on 7 October but it’s also immensely bad what Israel has been doing since 1948 up until 2024 (ongoing). If you push people far enough, they will fight back in the worst way possible and that’s happened.
Also imagine this; you are in your house with five family members. Suddenly group of 10 strangers force their way into your home, kill all your family members and force you in the bathroom for 10 years. For 10 years they have been living now, you manage to escape, fight back and kill several of these people. Now suddenly you are the aggressor, committed a crime and they (who took your home and killed your family) are the victims. That do be insane if it really happens right?
Well newsflash, that is truly happening to the Palestinian people.
You sound very upset, aggressive and making it immensely personal. I did not expect anything else from Israel supporters.
There’s a very reason they started to attack Israel the day Israel became an actual state but you purposefully left that out of the way.
So I will quote my old, old comment to you and leave it at that. Because there’s no civil discussion with Israel supporters.
Not only that, you suddenly started to bring the past into the discussion when you were first writing about 7th of October 2023 and beyond that. So you Purposefully trying to create confusion. After my quotation, I won’t comment to you anymore.
Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.
Murder? I saw the persons comment and it was clearly sarcasm. But I did not expect anything else from you. You delete everything that’s not to your liking, I remember you deleting my own comment for absolutely zero good reason.
Not the one you commented to but I found it interesting that you could still see it. So I tried another Lemmy app and now, I’m able to see it too as well.
One app shows “removed” and the other still shows the comment. Quite odd.
EDIT: Not only that, the video in the article that you linked in here is, I assume an interrogation video. This could be forced by IDF soldiers. It’s the same thing when Hamas releases a video from an IDF soldier claiming certain things. Always be sceptible on how true it is.
The U.S. military has started moving a pier towards the Gaza coast, a U.S. official said on Wednesday, one of the last steps before the launch of a maritime port promised by President Joe Biden to speed the flow of humanitarian aid to Palestinians....
Rebecca Joynes allegedly became pregnant after having sex with one of her victims, known as boy B, Manchester Crown Court heard - she denies the allegations against her....
Because a lot of Wikipedia pages can be edited by anyone, sure some are annotated at the end but lots are not as well. Therefore the trust of Wikipedia is in question.
Israel government is the new Nazi government. It is immensely insane that they’re doing nearly exact the same thing as what Nazi-Germany did to the Jewish people in WW2. Stripping away humanity.
But the presidents of all countries are turning a blind eye. There are just no words for this. This is horrifying, should not be happening.
Israel’s criminal defendant prime minister, more focused on saving his incompetent far-right government than saving the hostages who have spent seven months trapped in Gaza, is doing everything he can to torpedo Israel’s last and best chance at bringing the hostages home...
Last part as in ‘‘Israel claims they are the ‘‘only democracy in the Middle East’’?
I refer to this not only because they shutdown Al Jazeera but also their entire regime. They call themselves an democratic country in the Middle East but we all know:
They have an Apartheid regime (Two different laws. One for Israeli and one for Palestinian).
They sent Palestinian people unfair to prison.
Palestinian people have unfair judgement.
They shutdown Al Jazeera (I’m not even sure if they gave an actual reason but if they did; can we trust it? They have been known for lying to the world).
Netanyahu has been Prime Minister for so long while majority do not even want him as a Prime Minister.
People who humiliate Palestinian often do not get punished by law.
How can you call such an state ‘‘democratic’’?
EDIT 1: If you want, I can get news-sources for each claim.
EDIT 2: Checking upon your comment history, you’ve been spamming that particular sentence. So I’m curious why you are defending an state that is on paper “democratic” but in reality is not.
In Israel proper the laws are equal, plenty of Arabs live in Israel with the same rights as anyone else. In territories they occupy the laws are unfair, but I don’t know of any democracy that gives people in occupied territories equal rights
Do you have any proof of your particular claim? Like give a link with an example of it. Sorry to say but I’m immensely skeptical. I could claim lots of things and it could not be true.
They shutdown a foreign media outlet specifically for the duration of a war. Undemocratic, but not beyond the scope of democracy.
You said it, yourself. Undemocratic. Plus the two separate laws does not really define ‘‘democratic’’, does it? A Apartheid regime cannot be democratic. Not only that if they are so democratic, why shut it down? Freedom of speech is a part of being democratic which means allowing real news and evidence to be spread into to the world, to let others know what is going on.
This is discrimination not by law but by the people that enforce it, unfortunately democracy can’t effectively fix the biases of its citizens.
Two different laws makes it by itself already discriminating against the Palestinian people. Makes it more worse when people do not even ‘obey the law’.
The reason they are a democracy is because they have elections that determine the ruling party in the legislature. In 2022 a right wing party got the most votes and successfully created a coalition government. If the government does unpopular things then they will lose votes in the next election and be removed, ideally this limits unpopular government policy.
Not sure if I said it in this thread or somewhere else but Israel is on paper ‘’democratic’’ but in reality they are not. In January there was a poll done whether the Israeli want their Prime Minister to stay or be gone and the majority of the Israeli do not want their current prime minister and he keeps being in power.
they have the same laws for all citizens. jews, muslims, druze, etc. palestinians living in the west bank are citizens of the pa (or jordan), not of israel. the situation in area c of the west bank is a result of the failed oslo accords and bibi’s policy of “status quo”.
So first of all, Wikipedia is not a trustable source at all and therefore dismissed. This is because everyone can edit the Wikipedia page. For example, I can edit a page and then claim it is true. There’s no one really who keeps tabs on how trustable it is. Not only that, Wikipedia even says that one of the pages you gave is not really trustable ‘‘This page does not provide license information’’ and the page can be deleted. Thus not trustable.
Wikipedia is a good starting point but not a (trustable) source to back up claims.
My point stays the same; Israel is on paper ‘‘democratic’’ but in reality they are not. You cannot be democratice while having:
Apartheid system.
Unfair judgement to Palestinian people.
Unfair sending Palestinians to prison (many whom are children).
And everything else they do to the Palestinian people.
There are whistleblowers on how Israel litteraly tortures Palestinian people, article of this is the 3rd one. Do you consider this an actual ‘‘democratic’’ state?
shutting down a state backed media group that has ties to the muslim brotherhood (hamas is a branch of theirs), from a hostile state that hosts the billionaire leaders of hamas, is similar to the shutting down of rt in europe - which is a state backed media group of a hostile state.
Huge claim but no link to a trustable source. I’m honestly not sure whether this is true however then here’s my question: Why shutting it down now and not decades ago? If it is true, it means they knew it already and never done anything about it until Israel decided to commit another ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people and worse, genocide.
posting something twice and then replying to someone with a similar link isn’t “spamming”. pointing out the reality of this specific action / situation isn’t “defending” anything. that’s a very black and white view of things. same as when i criticize a state it doesn’t instantly mean i’m against it or hate it.
I do not understand what you mean here nor to what you are referring to.
I don’t know how the poling is now though. However with how the world currently sees Israel, I doubt it would be in a favor for the prime minister (as in not in favor for him).
So first; your comment sounds passive aggressive. You can argue/ discuss without it. If not, I’ll just block you.
I appreciate the sources, never knew it was thanks to his father - that Biden is a pro-Israel/ Zionist. However this does not particularly show that defending Israel is a “promise to his father”
Like the other comment state:
Biden’s primary stated reason for defending Israel is a promise to his dying father
In none of your articles does this come up. Only that his father is the reason of him being pro-Israel.
I know very well Biden is a pro-Zionist/ pro-Israel. You can check my comment history.
EDIT: so your sources and your comment doesn’t “answer” my question at all. It just shows he became a pro Israel because of his father. Not about him promising his father, he will defend Israel.
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Biden does not care at all for the people of Gaza, that’s very clear with the money/ weapons he sends to Israel.
EDIT: you can keep downvoting since it doesn’t mean much on Lemmy. However, it is true. If he actually cared about the lives of the Palestinian people, he wouldn’t send so much to Israel due to the very fact, he knows that it will be used for the genocide on Palestinian people.
No, he does not care at all. Biden said lots of times, he fully supports Israel. When someone says that while the particular state is committing genocide - the person truly does not care about the lives of the people who are being brutally murdered.
At some point the geopolitics and internal US politics needs to setback and you need to take a hard look and think about the more than 33 000 lives that have been taken away.
This is not about “doing anything he wants just because, he’s president”. Despite the fact Biden cannot do ‘everything he wants’ - he certainly has a great influence of what happens (he’s president after all). The US refused to agree to a ceasefire multiple times.
He could for example put pressure on not giving the money to Israel until ceasefire happens and pressure to not give any weapons and such if they (Israel) decide to continue.
Also this is just me probably nitpicking but why can’t you write without rude words?
Because that is what US doctrine has been since Israel’s inception. and Biden is not in a position to change that?
Sure that might be the US doctrine but he can start the change, he has the influence to do so. From what I last read the support from US citizens has dropped significantly Approval has dropped from 50% to 36% since November
Thats, unfortunately, not how politics works, Biden cant just say “fuck everyone else, im going to do something” and honestly thats probably a good thing as it also reigns in people like Trump to an extent.
You currently pretend as if Biden has zero influence as a President. Biden can put a lot of pressure onto it and perhaps it might budge. I never mentioned at all that he would be going ‘’I’m going to do something!’’. That’s not possible of course, but he can use his Presidency to put pressure on the money and weapon aid to Israel.
Yes he has a lot of influence, but he also doesnt even have a functional majority in either the house or the senate, and even if he did, there are outspoken zionists amongst the democratic party in both houses and the DNC, theres also zionists (including christian zionists) among the party’s biggest donors. Then theres the military industrial complex and the people who have large investments in those companies as well. All of those people have vested interests in supporting Israel and put a lot of pressure on Biden to support Israel. If Biden unilaterally went against Israel he wouldnt get very far going against all those people.
True indeed; he will have many obstacles but if he truly cared about the lives that are getting murdered on a daily basis, he would. However, he could use his influence to put pressure on the situation but at the moment, he’s just going with the flow.
And even if he someone did manage to go against them, those donors and supporters would likely flip to Trump who has basically come out saying he supports wiping Gaza off the map. oh and not to mention the media, who has been doing their best to sell the pro-Israel narrative would absolutely cannibalise Biden. So, even if he could go against all of the zionist influences, he is basically looking at a trolley problem, does he stop aid to Israel (which wouldnt even stop the genocide due to Israels large stockpiles of weapons) and basically gift the election to Trump, which among the plethora of other problems that would cause, would make things in Gaza far far worse.
This is speculation and perhaps you might be right. Can’t say much.
Oh and thats not even mentioning how important to the US economy and military doctrine their relationship with Israel is. They need good relations with Israel and to keep them armed so that they stay the dominant power in the middle east and willing to defend US capital and political interests in the region.
I know this, that’s why I referred to the one video of Biden. Therefore Biden does not really care about the Palestinian lives, everything to protect the US power in the middle east. Does not matter how many lives will get brutally taken away. As long as the US stays in power (right?). This is why it is such a double standard when US president is criticizing other countries about human rights when US presidents do not even care about human rights themselves and this is exactly why I keep repeating ‘’Biden does not care about the Palestinian lives’’
Israel hosts massive stocks of US weapons, the biggest outside of the US itself, as well as early warning radars, military bases and provides a port for the US 6th fleet.
And these stocks will one day cease to exist and without US providing more and more money and weapons, they will have certainly some problems (sooner or later).
When you add all of that up, can you see why Biden cant just start burning brides both internationally, within the US and even within his own party?
Yes and No. He can’t just ‘’burn bridges’’ immediately but he can do it slowly. At least take a hard stance on ‘’do not commit genocide’’ & ‘’do not do what Nazi Germany did to your people’’.
It’s odd though, you took my comment and changed it entirely but that’s okay though.
Apologies forgot to comment, saw the message but was at university and forgot about it after that.
Im not pretending he has no power im making he case that he doesnt have enough power to push this through.
He does have the influence and the power but he just does not want it. Perhaps he does not have enough power to ‘’push it through’’ but he can start it and some will follow.
i think thats an unfair assessment. There are a lot of places where people are getting murdered on a daily basis and I dont think its right to sell Biden as a heartless monster because hes not fixing them. Like I know its very apples to oranges to make this comparison, but what are you personally doing to help the people of Gaza? What about Ukraine? What are you doing to help the famine in Yemen? What about the civil war in Myanmar? Are you a bad person who doesnt care about those peoples lives because there is more you could be doing to help them? (again I know there is a world of difference between what you can do and what the POTUS can do)
It is not about ‘’fixing’’ them. It is literally about him signing money and weapon aid to a state that purposefully commit genocide, made and rule through Apartheid regime and is proud to have avoided an Palestinian state (Prime Minister of Israel said this himself). He’s 100% behind Israel despite everything that’s been going on.
You are making this personal and that’s okay (while I prefer to keep it neutral and not personal though). However what am I doing for the Palestinian cause? Boycott products that I can boycott and slowly replace them with products that do not have deals with Israel. I do not understand why you are bringing other countries into a full discussion that’s merely about Israel-Palestine conflict.
Like you, yourself said. I do not have the capacity and power to help as much as the President(s) are able to. I cannot sign a bill to gives billions to the people in need. He can but he gives it to the occupier, the murder, the state that commits genocide. The state that does the exact same thing as Nazi-Germany did (ethnic cleansing, committing genocide, war crimes and mass graves).
Source of my claim about the Prime Minister’s word about an Palestinian state:
The fact he’s pretending that the Palestinian state is an immense threat to humanity while his own state is the core threat to the Palestinian people and everyone who supports the Palestinian state. Israel is a fascist state, rules through Apartheid and hate. His entire state was created from everything he claims that the Palestinian state ‘‘would become’’.
I think this perfectly ties into what I was saying in my comment. Even if he is morally against this genocide (which I believe he is) the US cannot afford to lose Israel as an ally, as they need an Israel to protect US corporate and geopolitical interests in the region.
I do not understand your comment on my previous sentence there. Biden said himself ‘’if Israel didn’t exist, the US would have to invent one to protect US interests’’. He’s willing to create an own state that commits genocide, apartheid and humiliate the Palestinian people for his own interest. And you are trying to make me believe that he cares about the Palestinian lives?
I think this thinking is a too black and white just because they are not his top priority does not mean he doesn’t care about them. I know that might sound kind of harsh but thats just how it works. Pretty much everyone, not just Biden, not just politicians but everyone operates with a concept of “acceptable losses”. Like me or you certainly own some products, wether theyre electronics or cheap clothes or what have you, that were made with slave labour or from generally mistreated workers, but we accept that because your first priority is to yourself. If your choices are buy sweatshop clothes or go without clothes, you will take the clothes and dismiss the sweatshop labour as an acceptable or unavoidable loss. So its the same for Biden, but the stakes are astronomically higher.
No, this is not ‘’too black and white’’. Certainly they are not his top-priority, that should be his own country from which I think it is not either. He’s signing off so much money aid to state that commits genocide – while he could use that same money to help his own country.
So in what you are currently saying about ‘’acceptable losses’’, it’s okay to let more than 34 000 Palestinian people being brutally murdered? Now change the countries, lets say it’s an Western country or even the US itself. Suddenly it is not acceptable anymore in Biden’s eyes.
Remember we are talking about peoples lives, humans. Not just numbers, 34 000 human beings.
Biden’s first priority as president is to the US. So he can only go so far with his action when it comes to Israel, and despite what you and many people are saying he is doing something he has been putting pressure on Netanyahu, but ultimately Israel knows how valuable they are to the US and so knows how far they can push it given Biden’s weak position. He has pushed aid funding for Gaza, started airdrops into the strip and building the harbour to get larger amounts of aid in, as well as negotiating for a cease fire and hostage releases.
Is it? I mean the majority of the US does not approve of this war, I gave a source for this particular claim in one of my other comments. Yet he still choses Israel above his own peoples opinions. The people of the US makes the country US right?
‘’Putting pressure’’ is such a big word. What Biden has done to Israel is like what an adult person does to a child that took a candy ‘’don’t do that honey!’’. Biden is actively aiding the genocide, apartheid regime and humiliation of the Palestinian people and he knows it.
EDIT 1: Forgot to comment on this (the one below)
He has pushed aid funding for Gaza, started airdrops into the strip and building the harbour to get larger amounts of aid in, as well as negotiating for a cease fire and hostage releases.
He ‘‘pushes’’ aid funding for Gaza in small amounts while giving Israel billions of aid in money and weapons. That’s like a game. ‘‘Here Palestinian people a bit of food and drinks. Oh Israel, here’s the money and weapons. Enjoy the murdering of these innocent civillians’’. How much money and weapon aid went to Israel and how much went to the Palestinian people that are actually truly in need of the aid?
‘‘negotiating for a cease fire and hostage releases.’’ This statement is a bit of a stretch, don’t you think? US has been the core reason why the ceasefire did not go through multiple times. It’s always odd how, it’s always about the hostages but never about the innocent Palestinian people in the prisons of Israel and the thousands of deaths of the innocent Palestinian people.
If the hostages are released then what? Israel and their Prime Minister will continue sent innocent Palestinians to prison, humiliate the Palestinian people. Continue doing illegal settlements and steal more land. They will continue to murder innocent Palestinian people. The president(s) should take a stand against Israel, not just the US but majority of the Presidents.
If Israel did not stole the land, did not rule through hatred and Apartheid. Did not humiliate the Palestinian people continuously. Hamas would not even have existed.
I might just be entirely wrong… like really, really wrong and if so correct me. But didn’t A certain someone say something similar about people with a certain religion in Germany back in the days?
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cross-posted from: lemmy.world/post/15001340...
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