yahoo.com

nac82, to politics in Father of Marine killed in 2021 suicide bomb attack at Afghanistan's Kabul airport arrested at SOTU

I dont understand what his protest was for. I’m sure there is extreme emotional duress from losing a child that recently, but what was the goal or message here?

Bridger,

Make Biden look bad.

nac82,

Made himself look like a fool who cares more about politics than the death of his son to me.

I’d give him a break due to his grieving, but honestly, it’s pathetic that he would let his love for his son be manipulated for political points.

He was literally trying to use his son’s death to help the man who gave the orders that got his son killed.

FrowingFostek,

Conservatism seems, in my estimation, to be invariably vague in its ideology. Nothing is truly valued beyond the narrative.

PeterLossGeorgeWall,

The narrative isn’t even valued. How many times does Trump say something and then pretend he never said it. Or other members of the GOP say “I don’t think he really means that”. All that’s valued is pissing off the liberals by being arrogant, loud jerks.

Raiderkev,

None of the people on the right seem to know that Trump negotiated that deal.

nac82,

Turns out the moderators of this forum are in this group. Read the other comment chains here.

elbarto777,

Was his goal necessarily to help Trump?

nac82,

True, I’ve assumed too much. It just falls right in that Fox news narrative from 2 years back they were doing a lot.

Ensign_Crab,

Guess he’s a Russian now too.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Biden bungled the evacuation of Afghanistan leading to deaths.

nac82, (edited )

Biden wasn’t involved in the Afghanistan pullout, actually. That was definitively Trump.

They let Mods use mod profiles to spread misinformation in this sub?

Wow.

Edit:

Moving the relevant bits from Wikipedia above the debate so people will have a frame of reference.

…wikipedia.org/…/2020–2021_U.S.

The United States Armed Forces completed their withdrawal from Afghanistan on 30 August 2021, marking the end of the 2001–2021 war. In February 2020, the Trump administration and the Taliban signed the United States–Taliban deal in Doha, Qatar,[7] which stipulated fighting restrictions for both the US and the Taliban, and provided for the withdrawal of all NATO forces from Afghanistan in return for the Taliban’s counter-terrorism commitments. The deal, and then the Biden administration’s final decision in April 2021 to pull out all US troops by September 2021 without leaving a residual force, were the two critical events that triggered the start of the collapse of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF).[8

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Trump signed us up for it, and Biden was right that it needed to be done, but the execution of it was a travesty and that was absolutely on Biden.

I know, I know, it’s not like Biden planned every last detail of it, but when you say something idiotic like:

“There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy in the — of the United States from Afghanistan. It is not at all comparable.”

Source:

thehill.com/…/567872-the-biden-fall-of-saigon-med…

Then this happens:

youtu.be/-qpmi5KqggY

And this:

youtu.be/YUkObNlWjsI

Followed by this:

history.com/…/kabul-falls-to-taliban-us-withdrawa…

and this:

foreignpolicy.com/…/taliban-afghanistan-arms-deal…

Yeahhh… not a good look.

nac82,

Opinion pieces and YouTube videos. Nice sources. It’s some real irony at work as you scrub other peoples content on the sub for including video links. The last one is literally directly a result of Trumps orders, and that is the most credible link you shared. You are spreading misinformation.

What changes to Trumps Afghanistan retreat did Biden implement?

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

All Trump did was agree to the removal and set the timeline. The actual EXECUTION of the removal was on Biden because, by the time it actually came to get out, Biden was the commander in chief.

He SHOULD have evacuated all civilians and Afghani assets first, he failed to do that, even when Guam stepped up and offered to assist going “Hey, you know we’ve done this before, right?”

thenation.com/…/guam-was-ready-to-help-relocate-a…

Biden was told, ahead of time, “this is what needs to happen”, he ignored it.

www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/…/index.html

Once you evacuate all the civilian assets, you remove all the gear and equipment you can, then you burn the rest.

THEN you bring the troops home.

Point for point, Biden screwed it up, and when he gets called out on it, his argument is “Well, hey, we had to leave…” and while he’s not wrong in that, the priority and methodology was fucked from the ground up.

nac82,

So Trump gave shitty orders during a time he couldn’t provide oversight, and that is Bidens fault.

Sure, dude.

When asked what changes to Trumps orders Biden made, you change the topic.

Bad faith bullshit.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Trump gave NO orders for the evacuation. He agreed to evacuate and to the timeline.

The actual ORDERS were left to Biden, because when the time came, Trump was out and Biden was in.

nac82,

…wikipedia.org/…/2020–2021_U.S.

The United States Armed Forces completed their withdrawal from Afghanistan on 30 August 2021, marking the end of the 2001–2021 war. In February 2020, the Trump administration and the Taliban signed the United States–Taliban deal in Doha, Qatar,[7] which stipulated fighting restrictions for both the US and the Taliban, and provided for the withdrawal of all NATO forces from Afghanistan in return for the Taliban’s counter-terrorism commitments. The deal, and then the Biden administration’s final decision in April 2021 to pull out all US troops by September 2021 without leaving a residual force, were the two critical events that triggered the start of the collapse of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF).[8]

Yea, straight-up bullshit. The retreat was signed by Trump. The only orders from Biden were to remove the residual force that would have just been bait for casualties to instigate the next bloodshed.

How are you allowed to moderate this community? I’ve already taken screenshots of the thread. I’ve seen how you operate.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Read your own sources before reporting my well sourced and factual comments:

“The deal, and then the Biden administration’s final decision in April 2021 to pull out all US troops by September 2021 without leaving a residual force, were the two critical events that triggered the start of the collapse of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF).[8]”

Tyfud,

Again, which part of trump’s plan, that Biden merely followed through on to maintain our treatise and agreements trump made with the taliban, during a presidential transition, were Biden’s changes or influence?

The man followed through with an agreement the previous administration made to try and signal unity and consistency that the US always honors their agreements, even if we don’t like it, and that’s Biden’s fault somehow?

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Again, Trump had NO PLAN. All he agreed to was to exit and the date.

Everything else was on Biden.

Tyfud,

You know that’s not true, right? The other guy replying to you cited sources and references proving that what you said is straight up not true.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

And, unfortunately for them, their source directly says the opposite of what they think it does.

JimSamtanko,

You’re 100 wrong here.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Trump literally could not plan the Afghanistan exit because, now follow me on this, he specifically arranged for it to happen in the next Presidential term.

When it came time to leave, Trump wasn’t the commander in chief passing the orders. Biden WAS.

JimSamtanko,

But this is not true and relies on knowing what he was thinking and making assumptions. Everyone else is playing by the rules of what is provably true. You’re just… well…. Assuming things.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

It IS true, because all Trump did was agree to leave by what timeline and nothing else. He wasn’t the one saying “Yeah, so if Guam offers to help, make sure you ghost all their phone calls” because that hadn’t happened yet. BIDEN did that.

thenation.com/…/guam-was-ready-to-help-relocate-a…

“Among those willing to help was Governor Lourdes Leon Guerrero of Guam, a US territory in the Western Pacific. On June 12, she sent a letter to Biden. “Guam has stood ready to serve as a safe and secure route for this type of humanitarian effort throughout our history,” she wrote. “And today, it is no different. I assure you that my administration is prepared to assist” should Biden call on Guam to provide safe haven to refugees. She was echoing a plan advocates had been calling for since the spring: the “Guam option,” which would work around immigration bureaucracy by having the military airlift refugees to the island while they waited for their US visas or for another country to take them in. But the White House ghosted Leon Guerrero, too. After sending the June letter, the governor received “no formal written response,” according to a spokesperson.”

Trump had fuck all to do with this because it all happened AFTER he was out of office.

JimSamtanko,

Again, you’re 100% wrong:

factcheck.org/…/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-a…

I appreciate your feeling the need to dig in and entrench yourself in your own defense- but you’re just wrong.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Your link is EXACTLY what I’ve been saying!

“The Trump administration in February 2020 negotiated a withdrawal agreement with the Taliban that excluded the Afghan government, freed 5,000 imprisoned Taliban soldiers and set a date certain of May 1, 2021, for the final withdrawal.”

Trump made the agreement and set the date.

Biden issued the actual orders.

“Biden delayed the May 1 withdrawal date that he inherited. But ultimately his administration pushed ahead with a plan to withdraw by Aug. 31, despite obvious signs that the Taliban wasn’t complying with the agreement and had a stated goal to create an “Islamic government” in Afghanistan after the U.S. left, even if it meant it had to “continue our war to achieve our goal.””

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

please check dms/reports

JimSamtanko,

THAT HE INHERITED.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

He inherited the commitment, and the timeline, the actual order of events, the actual military decisions, the choice to ignore the offer of help from the Governor of Guam, that’s ALL on the commander in chief, which, at the time, was Biden.

JimSamtanko,

I think it’s pretty evident that you don’t understand how any of this works. It’s probably best to end this here before I start getting comments removed.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

I’m telling you exactly how it works, Trump committed to it, factually proven, with links. Biden executed it, factually proven, with links.

The failure was in the execution, as I’ve already noted.

Did Trump set Biden up for failure?

100% yes.

Could Biden have done things differently so as to avoid the clusterfuck?

100% yes.

Biden CHOSE to start drawing down troops while civilians and equipment were still there. That is all on Biden.

From June, 2021:

www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/…/index.html

“It takes an average of 800+ days, and we plan to withdraw in less than 100 days,” they noted. US Central Command said this week that the US withdrawal from the country was 30% to 44% complete."

Biden CHOSE to ignore the Governor of Guam when they offered assistance evacuating the civilians who helped us.

thenation.com/…/guam-was-ready-to-help-relocate-a…

“Among those willing to help was Governor Lourdes Leon Guerrero of Guam, a US territory in the Western Pacific. On June 12, she sent a letter to Biden. “Guam has stood ready to serve as a safe and secure route for this type of humanitarian effort throughout our history,” she wrote. “And today, it is no different. I assure you that my administration is prepared to assist” should Biden call on Guam to provide safe haven to refugees. She was echoing a plan advocates had been calling for since the spring: the “Guam option,” which would work around immigration bureaucracy by having the military airlift refugees to the island while they waited for their US visas or for another country to take them in. But the White House ghosted Leon Guerrero, too. After sending the June letter, the governor received “no formal written response,” according to a spokesperson.”

Trump had NOTHING to do with either of those events because he had already been out of office for MONTHS when they happened.

You don’t believe me? Believe, I dunno, the STATE DEPARTMENT?

abcnews.go.com/International/…/story?id=100553006

“While the White House previously said that Biden directed government agencies to prepare for “all contingencies,” the State Department inquiry found disorganization in the highest level of government, saying it was “unclear who in the department had the lead” on evacuation efforts.

The review also claims that senior officials failed to make critical decisions about which at-risk Afghan nationals would be airlifted before Afghanistan fell into turmoil.

Cited, quoted, proven.

JimSamtanko,

k.

nac82, (edited )

You failed to read it the first time so I will paste it here.

Yea, straight-up bullshit. The retreat was signed by Trump. The only orders from Biden were to remove the residual force that would have just been bait for casualties to instigate the next bloodshed.

It’s funny that I directly talked about that bit. And of course, you decide to start attacking me with an uncivil slap fight response instead of addressing my statements.

You need to revisit the comment and the bit of Wikipedia that you cut out of the quote below.

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

they seem confident about things they are wrong about factually, and have certainly moderated based on opinion or accusing others of misinformation where they are the one who is misinformed. but I don't see it changing.

also your comment and mine are in violation of the rules about discussing moderation. we can whine on !modabuse

nac82,

If moderation is being used as a tool to manipulate conversation on the thread, I don’t see how people can be expected not to talk about it.

What instance is that group on? I might have it blocked.

zettajon,
@zettajon@lemdro.id avatar

Let’s say you work at a very busy fast food place that has a night shift, complete with its own night manager. While you sleep, the night manager puts in an order: at 1pm, all remaining potatoes must be dumped, and you must go buy new crates of potatoes. 10am comes and the daytime manager comes in, and is stunned to see the order. At noon, the lunch rush starts. At 1pm, the day manager follows through on the simple order of throwing out the remaining potatoes, and now the fast food joint can’t make more fries.

Who is at fault in this situation? The night manager agreed to dump the potatoes and gave an order on the exact time to do it. There was no plan given on how to do it. The day manager received the order and was the one who actually dumped the potatoes, costing the restaurant a ton of money by essentially shutting down fry production.

jacksilver,

Is there evidence the time line was feasible, or that the outcome under Biden could have been avoided. My understanding of the events is that everything was setup in a way where either the time line had to change or things would get messy.

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, no, in fact Biden was told an evacuation like that could NOT be done in the timeframe and they went with it anyway.

www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/…/index.html

“The bipartisan lawmakers contended that the existing process for Afghan Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) applicants will not work.

“It takes an average of 800+ days, and we plan to withdraw in less than 100 days,””

That’s where Guam stepped up and said “hey, we’ll take them, let us help!” and were ignored.

If the process takes more than 800 days, you either expedite that process, or remove them to a location where they can safely wait out the process.

The Biden administration chose “none of the above”.

jacksilver,

So doesn’t that mean Trump set him up to fail. Sounds like the prior administration messed up and left Biden to clean up. No matter what Biden did, he’d be in the wrong (extend the evacuation or push forward with the set timeline).

If that’s the case what are you arguing should have happened, and how is the previous admin not responsible for creating the circumstances.

zettajon,
@zettajon@lemdro.id avatar

Trump gave NO orders for the evacuation

washingtonexaminer.com/…/milley-paper-order-withd…

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Read your link much?

“Despite their advice, Biden ordered the complete withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan in April 2021. They ultimately withdrew at the end of August 2021, with the Taliban back in power and Afghans who had spent two decades working with U.S. forces concerned for their safety.”

prole,

Clown

jordanlund,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry cited facts don’t matter to you.

Insulting another user gets your comment removed.

Insulting a mod gets you a 24 hour ban.

Touch grass.

owen, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

Oh? God told you to take their homes away? With violence?

That changes everything! Please continue.

pennomi,

For those not in the know, this is literally the founding story of Israel - God told them to genocide the Canaanites and steal their land. What we’re seeing here is violence that continues to be perpetuated by religious traditions (about events which never really happened, according to biblical scholars).

cm0002,

Religion is the worst invention ever

Zrybew,

And the state of Israel the second worst

bartolomeo,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

What’s the verse or chapter or whatever where this can be found?

pennomi,

Lots of places (like… so, so many places), but here’s one in Numbers 31 where they kill all the men, most of the women, and all male children. In fact, Moses commands them to keep killing because it wasn’t genocidey enough the first time.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain;

9 And the children of Israel took

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey,

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host,

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

bartolomeo,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

Holy shit… I always hear about this and that being in the Bible or whatever book but I’ve never seen the specifics. It’s way worse than I thought.

Thanks for the example.

maculata, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

Genocide.

Raykin,

But hey, it’s only genocide until they are all gone. After that it’s all cookies and rainbows.

Steve,

Checks with north American natives…

Yup this checks out.

UltraMagnus0001,

Smallpox bitches. Germ warfare.

spirinolas,

“Genocide!”

“It’s not genocide, they’re still there…”

later

“Genocide, they are all gone!”

“Never again 😢”

lights candle

theotherverion, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

These radical Zionists (usually Kahanists and similar) are just as bad as Hamas and other terrorist groups.

OutlierBlue, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

But I was emphatically told this was not what they were doing by several apologists! They wouldn’t have lied, would they?!

Asafum,

Maybe not the apologists, they’re just drinking the piss flavored Kool aid.

Those making the piss punch could use another type of punch. All the propagandists, everywhere.

A lot of focus on lemmy is on billionaires and not nearly enough on propagandists. It’s the propagandists that enable the billionaires to continue, and in this case it’s the propagandists that “allow” for arguments over reality to exist.

I wish hell were real, it would be full to the brim with propagandists, billionaires, and fundamental religious nutters. And who am I kidding, probably me too lol

bartolomeo, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

Religious Zionists, who believe the Jewish people have divine authority to rule from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, make up only around 14% of Israel’s population. But in recent years they have greatly expanded their influence in the military, the government and society at large,

“In recent years…” What? Israel itself is a Zionist project since the beginning, from Hovevei Zion to Herzl to Haganah to Ben-Gurion to Sharon and Netanyahu.

Blackmist, to world in Israel ‘yet to give any evidence’ UN staff were linked to Hamas massacre

I’m going to buck the trend and say I do believe that some (Israel say 190) of UNRWA staff are also members of Hamas. I’m also going to say that doesn’t justify the actions of Israel and withdrawal of international funding.

UNRWA have 13,000 staff members and volunteers in the Gaza strip. We’re talking everything from toilet cleaners to people who volunteer to hand out bags of rice and water. You can’t possibly vet that number of people when you’ve have a desperate situation at hand. You take all the help you can get.

If you dig right down into the lower echelons of any large organisation you will find people with extremist views. It’s just statistics.

turkishdelight, to world in Israel ‘yet to give any evidence’ UN staff were linked to Hamas massacre

it’a hard to give evidence when there isn’t any.

EdibleFriend,
@EdibleFriend@lemmy.world avatar

They also just don’t give a shit about providing evidence as they can basically do or say whatever they want.

CosmoNova,

Israel has done a lot of fucking around and the only ones who are slowly finding out are their closest allies who find themselves being dragged deeper and deeper into a full blown genocide.

kautau,

Don’t worry though, they’ll wag their finger so hard

Aceticon,

There will also be an intensification of the slightly stern looking, along with a tiny reduction of backstage winking and nodding.

antidote101,

UNRWA is doing an investigation, and has already fired around 4 or so people. The numbers involved are far fewer than Israel has claimed.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

They fired those people prematurely awaiting the “evidence” israel had (none)

Israel trolls then used UNRWA firing their employees as “being guilty”. They are truly shameless.

Aceticon, to world in Israel ‘yet to give any evidence’ UN staff were linked to Hamas massacre

It was always only meant to be a shallow excuse to provide cover for the various Nazi-loving leaders in Western nations to cut humanitarian aid to Gazans so as to expedite Israel’s Final Solution, death by starvation.

It’s not by chance that most nations that used this excuse to immediatelly cut UNRWA funds are traditionally racist, such as as Britain, Germany, the US and Australia.

Pat12, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

They will openly say this and still the US does nothing to stop it

00x0xx, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

Just like North America, when the British sent their religious fanatics to colonize their new colonies.

Nath, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'
@Nath@aussie.zone avatar

That’s not what deport means. That’s displace.

livus,

At this scale that’s Ethnic Cleansing.

BeatTakeshi, to world in Israel ‘yet to give any evidence’ UN staff were linked to Hamas massacre
@BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world avatar

They already got what they wanted, suspended funding for UNRWA. Now they can blissfully ignore calls for evidence. In 6 years they will say that a trainee misread a paper lying in a printer

turkishdelight, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

They have been doing this for more than 70 years. Israel exists on stolen Palestinian land.

BlackNo1, to world in Israel's religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: 'We are occupying, deporting and settling'

what the fuck is wrong with humans

xmunk,

We’re greedy fucks and vulnerable to bubbles. There’s a concept that humans have a strong internal moral compass and some of us might. Most people though, just go with the flow, and let the people around them guide their morals - this seems to happen especially awfully in religious communities. Weirdly enough a fair number of awful religious people seem aware of how immoral they are and repeat the thought “Without God’s guidance we’d be animals” which just highlights how awful they actually are.

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