I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden’s handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.
I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.
Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing “simple” solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.
Let’s not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.
Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
It’s really refreshing. We do have our share of crazies, as my block list can attest, but for the most part people are willing to accept that sometimes situations can be really complicated.
This is one of those ones that sounds rational but really isn’t.
Nobody said we have to leave Israel completely in the wind. They just want weapons deliveries to stop. Other countries aren’t worried about Democrats holding their alliances. They’re worried the Democrats are following the Republicans down the hole and supporting extreme religious parties. You show your allies you value them by listening to them, not by vetoing their anti starvation measures in the UN for several months.
Eh there’s plenty of people who want to completely abandon Israel, and I’m honestly sympathetic to their viewpoint. There’s definitely people who think any violence against Israeli civilians is justified, although they’re usually heavily downvoted.
I think the comment is perfectly rational when you consider these other comments.
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted. Very few people have a “bomb, baby, bomb!” approach. We largely agree that this violence is a tragic genocide and needs to stop. But we also understand the political reality in the US, and what our options are. And I think people have done a good job of successfully bringing Biden around on this.
There’s a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.
So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?
This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
You can use that rationale to justify any invasion against a weaker nation. All it takes is the lack of morality to justify horrific crimes. Your logic falls flat on its face in cases where force and coercion end up having the opposite effect than your stated goal. Countries in the Middle East are finding themselves more and more inclined to do business with China in times of increased threats and sanctions from the US. The “Great Satan” is hated by the population exactly because of the “diplomacy” that you advocate for. An increased resentment among the population influences politics, which drives these countries closer to enemies to the US.
if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
So if Zionist government officials don’t steal taxpayer money in order to fund their Zionist invasion of the Middle East, Israel will kill more people. So Israel must be supported in order to kill less people. Nice logic.
A cornered rat can only do so much before it gets exhausted. It’s better to corner a rat and have it rage rather than pouring in all its cousins to make it feel safer in order to pacify it.
I have to point out that your “diplomacy” perfectly aligns with the Zionist project, which does involve a genocide as has been documented time and time again.
I don’t like to attack the person besides the argument, but in this case I don’t think you deserve the benefit of the doubt because of your colossal lack of empathy and unwillingness to consider solutions that don’t involve supporting a full-scale invasion. What’s more disgusting than an overtly wicked individual is one who hides behind talks of nuance and who uses fancy deductions (with false premises) in order to put wool in front of people’s eyes.
To send israel government “whatever it needs” and additional aid is the opposite of diplomacy. The really reason they are getting away with a genocide is because they have the west backing.
There’s a genocide happening right now under your nose where thousand of kids are getting killed, this is already the worst case scenario. They are doing exactly what they want to do, they are not seeking diplomacy they want war.
I think…this is more complicated than a clear cut black and white choice. Not killing is clearly the correct response. Thing is how do we get there? Do we attempt to send in troops to police a location half a planet away? You know people will support that while also pointing out other conflicts we should be “dealing with” and pointing casually to situations we’ve made usually worse by stepping into.
That’s not really the point though. The point is the support being given.
I agree that the sales of arms to any institution inflicting harm on another is, at the absolute best, a grey area on a good day. It seems to me though that in a conflict that is powered by ideology, this legitimately makes no real difference. It will happen whether we break off the relationship or not. Because of this, it is best to attempt to utilize that relationship to attempt to diplomatically stop the conflict. The alternatives are send in forces which will increase regional political strain and possibly ignite a larger conflict, or do absolutely, irrefutably nothing.
If there is a fourth decision that leads to a better outcome I am not wise enough to see it. What I do understand is that all relationships require some give in order to have some take. I don’t agree with any weapons being sent over, though I do believe they made zero real impact on the result. This was going to happen and I feel attempting to stop it without escalation was the right choice, because it usually is the right choice.
Anyway, chances are the situation is far more complex than we realize. 50/50 on me being wrong, which is fine, opinions can change. Diplomacy should always take precedence over added conflict though.
I’m probably more ignorant than I realize, though I am under the understanding that there has been increasing levels of pressure. Netanyahu just doesn’t care.
Its ok to be ignorant, but you have to understand we are talking about this like it is an unpaid loan or some material bullshit.
This is an entire people and their landscape being erased. Every moment of “increasing pressure” that doesn’t create material policy change is horrifically extending hell on earth.
You just stated the point of OPs post. It’s not like when we sent arms to them since the 80s Biden was suddenly like “ok go kill babies”. We should definitely suspend future transactions until at least the end of the current government term though. This whole US is equally responsible is a bit much though.
If genocide isn’t a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us “for the good of our country” just opens the door to more moral failures. And we’re the ones that will have to live in that system.
Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it’s not a country that’s entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel’s unique political position.
It’s that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?
Also a genocide is basically something where all kinds of crime are encompassed. Keeping an alliance despite genocide, maybe counterintuitively, makes one less trustworthy of an ally, because an alliance is an agreement, a contract to be held in good faith. There were obligations and agreements taken to not partake in such things, some even directly to the victims.
Biden didn’t invent the alliance to Israel, but when the conflict increased during his term he side-stepped congress to give weapons to them faster, so they can kill more civilians as quick as possible.
Don’t excuse for what he has done. Biden is a war criminal. And having NATO, most powerful minitarly alliance in the World, threatened is no comparison to genocide in Gaza. NATO is a problem just as well, but Israel needs to be stopped ASAP.
Biden did not invent our alliance with israel, but he certainly has strongly supported it for decades and decades: www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs
Calling the situation complicated and saying there is a lot of nuance has often been used as a cover for israel’s campaign of terrorism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now full-speed mask-off genocide. The official US position amounts to nothing because it’s two-faced. Biden will claim he is doing what he can while he bypasses congress and otherwise sneaks weapons to israel to continue the genocide. You ask about theoretical wars while downplaying a genocide happening right now. Somehow you think caring about genocide is rash, but being paranoid about imaginary wars is rational. I don’t know what your intentions are, but your post sounds like a PR piece, urging us to stay calm and take things slow so that israel can complete its mission of genocide in peace.
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it’s orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
… But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”?
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
Direct your shame and finger wagging to the people who actually deserve it.
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”? My counter-argument is actually: The shitty decision is more popular, and it prevents the even-shittier decision from playing out next year, should the other guy win.
The good news is that Biden has clearly pivoted in recent months, going from being lockstep with Netanyahu to calling out the indiscriminate bombing and having a public tussle with them now. In fact they’ve moved more on this issue than I expected, abstaining from their veto-power and outright calling Israel’s actions indiscriminate.
But it’s a curious thing, your dodging my question: Just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
I’m all for trying to convince them, which is clearly what the Biden administration is softly trying to do. Too hard, and you know enough from internet arguments how people double-down blindly to safe face. That doesn’t change the fact of the current polling.
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
But it doesn’t go both ways.
Progressives and leftists are simultaneously “the minority” in every single policy disagreement. There is not a single example of Biden making material compromises with progressives and leftists in his entire term because the threat is always “the polls don’t say that’s the way to go”.
So then after 4 years of being pushed aside Every. Single. Time. if Biden loses who will be blamed? Moderates? Liberals? War mongers? Nope. Those darn progressives and leftists.
Despite having zero material influence on policy we are handed 100% responsibility for every failure. It’s fucking bullshit.
Dude Biden and AOC both disagree with you. He clearly has compromised with progressives and been more progressive than probably any president in 40 years.
Literally every single social and economic progressive act had come through Democrats. It may not he as fast as you want but at least it happened unlike wishful thinking.
Biden wasn’t even my 3rd choice and I hear your frustrations on wishing more could be done, but it’s just not feasible until we actually change the rules of the game and kick the GOP to the curb for good.
You argued to me to stop finger-wagging at progressives and focus on the problem. All I’m saying is to do the same. Stop finger-wagging at Biden and influence the polls. Influence the Jewish Americans and I promise you the second you shift their stance you’ll see a reflection in the a Biden Administration’s approach.
Because his team of advisors and strategists with more experience and insider polling data than you or me are doing exactly this.
You argued to me to stop finger-wagging at progressives and focus on the problem. All I’m saying is to do the same. Stop finger-wagging at Biden and influence the polls. Influence the Jewish Americans and I promise you the second you shift their stance you’ll see a reflection in the a Biden Administration’s approach.
NO.
I have done enough. I am walking away from a pro-corporate trash candidate, a pro-corporate trash party and all the liberal and moderate voters who are so fucking happy with pro-corporate trash.
If they want my vote then they can do the work for once in their fucking lives. If that’s too much to ask of them then their precious “Democracy” must not be that important to them. I’m out. I’m voting 3rd party.
Then such a person is a hypocrite. You tell me to stop finger-wagging and then proceed to do precisely the same thing. I don’t know what to say. Can’t be more obvious.
YOU:
“Stop finger-wagging progressives; focus on changing the opinion of Jewish Americans!”
ME:
“Stop finger-wagging Biden; focus on changing the opinions of Jewish Americans!”
You’re trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than everybody else. You’re insisting we have to vote for someone acting against our interests while excusing others for signaling they wouldn’t vote for Biden if he did.
Fuck. That. Shit.
Your polling calculus only holds up if people like me show up to vote for Biden. So I’ll change that calculus: I’m voting 3rd party.
See? Now you can go deal with the people who insist Biden keep sending weapons to Israel. It’s not my problem anymore.
If progressives are smarter and more informed than everyone else, then yes I hold them to a higher standard. I’m one of them, and yes I hold myself to a higher standard than anyone else.
So I’ll change that calculus: I’m voting 3rd party.
And in doing so, you’ll doom Ukrainian women and children, as well as Palestinian women and children because of your pouting for years to come and that disgusts me. But go for it. I can’t teach morality over Lemmy.
If progressives are smarter and more informed than everyone else, then yes I hold them to a higher standard. I’m one of them, and yes I hold myself to a higher standard than anyone else.
Lol that’s even worse! Not only are you holding us to a different standard you’re spending your time and energy lecturing people like me instead of doing the very thing you told me to do.
focus on changing the opinions of Jewish Americans
No, I don’t need to write a 100 page comment about how some suck harder then others.
Switching away from first past the post voting makes third parties viable and eliminates the spoiler effect. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why first past the post voting makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to chanfe how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
Wrote this before and I’ll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn’t just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn’t hear the words, “indiscriminate bombing” from Trump’s facial sphincter.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream “vote blue no matter who” at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I’m sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we’re fucked anyway. Even if you’re optimistic and say “No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!” Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That’s right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let’s get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can’t “vote blue no matter who” those types, they’ll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We’re nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that’s why things like Malcolm X’s quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it’s like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that’s a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there’s a path forward through the democratic party, it’s eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don’t think ‘progressive issues’ like ‘stop killing the environment before we all die’ have the time necessary to go the same route that’s been taken from Malcolm X to now.
What I mean by that is it’s far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I’m all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn’t change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can’t be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the “moderates and liberals” are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what’s at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can’t comprehend the game you’re even trying to threaten. I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
Okay. Then verbalize those disagreements in the context of my arguments so I don’t have to repeat myself.
For example
I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
How? If they won’t compromise with leftists and progressives now they won’t compromise when leftists and progressives start dominating primaries. I said this in my original comment.
I’m pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden’s position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it’s clearly not.
I’m not really integrated in hypotheticals insomuch as the reality at hand: this is election year. The primaries are over. Biden had moved on the issue of Israel already. And we (as well as Ukraine and Palestine) cannot afford as a nation to go through another 4 years.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn’t shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
I’m pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden’s position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it’s clearly not.
This is your idea of compromise? Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn’t shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
I can’t. If you’re right you’re right. But I’ll be voting 3rd party. I won’t be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren’t morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I’m not either.
Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
It’s funny you reply to that but have still managed to dodge my question to you directly related to this… Twice. How convenient.
I’m beginning to feel you’re not discussing in good faith.
I can’t. If you’re right you’re right. But I’ll be voting 3rd party. I won’t be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren’t morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I’m not either.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power. Literally Republicans bankroll your 3rd party candidates including the Green Party to attract folks like you and you fall for the bait. I legitimately have to wonder how old you are simply because these are eerily reminiscent to arguments made from someone sub-22-years-old and witnessing their first maybe second election cycle since turning voting age.
Whatever. If you’re voting 3rd party, that’s too far gone for me to commit any further than I care to. I might as well talk to a Trump supporter.
Thank you for admitting one doesn’t understand the mathematical end-result of FPTP, or what spoiler vote is.
That applies just as well to people who would refuse to vote for Biden if he cuts off weapon shipments. You’re trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard.
This country was founded under genocide and fascism and continues to this day. We still have legalized slavery that we support every time we buy tomatoes at the grocery store as well as our tax dollars. Anti-protest legislation and weaponry are being pushed every single year so much that you can now be considered a domestic terrorist if you protest on a road or pipeline depending on the state. We are relatively comfortable as a direct result of us taking advantage of the global south and continued colonialism projects. The more the unsustainable status-quo is extended, the more people will want to burn shit to the ground because they’re seeing their friends and family struggling with absolutely no help from a government that would rather bomb brown kids and bail out corporations and practice insider trading than help them out. They are having to choose to never have children and never own a home because of the status quo. Thinking voting in the same system that got us into this mess will fix it is naive. Should trump even be allowed to run if we were a real democracy? Should citizens get any say in if we’re perpetuating a genocide if we were a real democracy? If you think voting for biden will “save democracy”, you obviously think we have more time than we actually have.
Voting 3rd party is an answer to the wrong question. The question of “how do we fight off fascism” can’t be solved at the ballot box, and it can’t be solved by someone who refuses to treat threats of fascism harshly and swiftly or even help bolster defenses against it. Voting for someone who is trying their hardest to lose this election isn’t going to fix this. Voting 3rd party isn’t going to fix this. Being convinced that the government will be our saviors against themselves means you only need to be engaged in politics when it’s time to vote. Get to know your neighbors. Physically defend the most vulnerable against those who are willing to “just follow orders” from a fascist government (state or federal). Sabotage and protest and strike until the capitalists and government start bleeding money and are willing to operate in good faith. If you think that’s too much work, go ahead and vote for biden and blame leftists when he inevitably loses. Fascism is already here, but it might start affecting you soon.
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you’re going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you’re illegally sending arms to.
Isn’t that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it’s working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he’d be done for. There’s no suddenly stopping the inertia we’ve had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they’re “shit at their jobs”? It’s a cute, confident thing to say… But if you’re really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What’s more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel’s actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn’t share the same popularity. I wouldn’t want to be in Biden’s position or his strategists.
It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
It’s intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
There wasn’t a point. It was a denial that anything need to be done because the data says electoral politics are more important than stopping another genocide.
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican if anything happened to Israel, which is also ridiculous to say while asking for data driven anything.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican i
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What’s heavily ironic about this is I’ve heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there’s a greater risk to Biden’s reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden’s reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
Such a strong fighter for these 8 months. Yet don’t seem to care whatsoever about the consequences for Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter) for the next 4 years. How curious.
And now we’re too the any criticism of Biden means they’re for Trump. Way to get 2 in one there.
Plus still haven’t seen your source on how the entire Jewish population in the country are okay with Israels handling of Palestinians and the whole genocide they’re doing.
Well then my mistake; for sure: Be critical of Biden all you want. I don’t agree with you on what’s strategically better for ensuring his reelection but so be it.
All I care is that you vote for Biden in November. Anything short of that is equivalent to being for Trump.
Also, my bad - it was from another comment chain here:
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it’s orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
… But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Got it you just don’t like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
In total, 1,941 Jewish and 414 Muslim respondents participated in this survey.
I mean yeah totally fair to use it as representative population but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
And again you can’t say
7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
Finally let’s suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They’d have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
At this point who cares about Israel? It’s clear they aren’t making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Got it you just don’t like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
Incorrect. I just don’t like people shooting themselves in the foot or having tunnel-vision without seeing the bigger picture.
but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn’t even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
Who cares? Whether it’s 6.7 million “by some estimates,” or 7.6 million “by some estimates.” — that in no way changes my point, but good on you for digging in the weeds out of complete irrelevance.
Finally let’s suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They’d have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
Well now we’ve come full-circle. The same question can be posed to Biden by his staff by asking, “What will tankies and the left do, vote for Trump? Not vote? Vote 3rd party? See how that worked out for their agenda when literally every progressive advancement came on the backs of the Democratic party and every reversal thereof came from Republicans.” So between the two groups, which will Biden choose to risk less, the bigger voting population, or the smaller voting population?
Unfortunately there are a lot of swing-voters out there, too, who haven’t had their minds made up. Until they fall into a camp, the Biden administration is going to toe the line to ensure such voters are still reachable.
At this point who cares about Israel? It’s clear they aren’t making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Not talking about Israel. I’m talking about the relentless propaganda campaign about, “How Biden is an antisemite and jeopardized the safety of Jewish people of Israel by taking away their self-defense.” This would be repeated across all right-wing outlets, not to mention the massive amount of foreign interference that is already occurring by Israeli and Russian operatives.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn’t even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
Blatant straw-men have already occurred with me; in my view the door is open. I have no problem dishing back what was already served. If they want to dial it down, then I shall treat them with the utmost respect but these, “Got it. You just don’t x.” responses are tiresome. Of all the things you could hit me for, I believe this is pretty light but I’ll own it as a fallacy.
No seriously, are you okay? It does not, in fact, take two, lest you seek one person to run their mouths and the other to just take it. So unless you’re suggesting we enable bullying without pushing the bully back or fallacies without objection, I’m not really sure what the point is that you’re making.
So kindly explain your thought-process when you respond with simply re-quoting what I said and nothing more; for overall I think my comments remained largely neutral, barring the low-hanging fruit you identified and which I even acknowledged.
you admitted that you were using fallacious rhetoric already (thouh your admission is not necessary: it was prima facie). but you also (correctly) pointed out a strawman, which is also fallacious rhetoric.
What’s hypocritical about noting, “these, ‘Got it. You just don’t x.’ responses are tiresome”? Do you not recognize the obvious snarkiness and straw-man fallacy? Are you saying I’m not allowed to call this out?
And why are you replying multiple times to the same comment instead of just consolidating your response into one?
What’s hypocritical about noting, “these, ‘Got it. You just don’t x.’ responses are tiresome”? Do you not recognize the obvious snarkiness and straw-man fallacy? Are you saying I’m not allowed to call this out?
i’m saying you are doing teh same thing, and you’re right that they are exhausting, so you should also knock it off.
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
A brilliant political analyst, Johnson foresaw the consequences of his civil rights legislation on the day he signed it into law. He is said to have remarked: “We’ve lost the south for a generation.” historical data
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won’t be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden’s position.
And ultimately that’s exactly what we’ve seen over the last couple of months.
You’d sell your mother into slavery to get Biden elected, that much is obvious. You have no moral framework for any of your so-called “principles,” your only concern is winning. Which is precisely how we got to this point after the third-way Democrats compromised with neoliberalism by allowing corporate donations to dominate their party. Compromising your humanity by settling with the lesser evil is still evil.
Hahaha I’m sorry, what? Now you’re just going off the deep end.
I’d rather ensure my mother doesn’t live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It’s not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You’d rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we’ve had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
I’m not saying to not vote for Biden to prevent the fascism of Trump. I will. And I have to make peace with that, if I can. But I’m not gonna lie to myself and others to justify this administrations actions regarding Palestine. Genocide should never be condoned, even for poll numbers.
I entirely sympathize with that and think this is a very grounded comment. From my view I feel Democrats are losing the information war and our ties to Israel are too deep to just uproot overnight without disastrous consequences.
I weigh the pros/cons of: Biden cutting all ties and aid overnight with Israel versus the risk to popularity and losing the election and handing the keys to Trump. Put another way: if this wasn’t election season and polls weren’t this tight, I think Biden would’ve dropped Israel much faster and absorbed the risk. (sort of like withdrawing from Afghanistan far away from an election).
It is imperative every one of us keep pushing against the Israeli narrative so we alter the polling in favor of walking away from Israel.
No source, just personal experience. Older people are split, younger people all against Israel (in these events). That’s about my relatives from the Jewish side in the US.
This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide
Arguably this is because he didn’t ignore the Bosniak genocide but then NATO was criticized for getting involved.
It’s my personal belief that we should intervene militarily to stop genocides, but there’s influential “leftist” thinkers who seem to disagree. Some will still say the US shouldn’t have gotten involved with Kosovo, and I believe Chomsky notoriously denied the Cambodian genocide was even happening.
Of course, the right answer is to say fuck these people and get involved anyway. We shouldn’t bow to political disagreement when it comes to stopping genocides.
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
Ah yes, that’s a completely accurate and fair description of the choice at hand and totally 100% not an obvious straw-man fallacy, leaving aside the cute little purity pyrrhic victory you’re setting yourself up for.
I’m just forward-thinking and very much against it for the next 4 years, let alone next 8 months. Some people see a few more chess-moves ahead than others, I guess. Seems hard for you.
These are his ‘only’ choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel’s projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
It would not be the end for Biden. That’s hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can’t be pressured at all.
You know who you’re never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we’ll keep staying home.
You’re saying he’d be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can’t agree with that. He’d be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn’t just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He’s doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He’s completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he’d be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn’t any more that needs to be said. It’s holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
Oh no, he will be accused of being pro-Hamas. Just like when you criritize him you are accused of being pro-Trump, or if you critize evil NATO countries are doing, you are called pro-Russian. If people are that stupid to not see this clear tactic that everyone who critiques me must support my enemies, then you should maybe they shouldn’t use the same tactic when it suits them.
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
I don’t give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they’re voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you’re smarter.
They don’t shift policies, they shift marketing. They will continue to support Israel because they are treating you with Trump and you have to vote for them whatever they do. So change is never going to happen.
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that “Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats”. There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20
That, however isn’t the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.
Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time
you are now shifting the goalposts from “it didn’t happen” to “it was a good idea”.
<span style="color:#323232;">That didn't happen.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And if it was, that's not a big deal.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And if it is, that's not my fault.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And if it was, I didn't mean it.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And if I did, you deserved it.
</span>
There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office
no such evidence is possible: you can’t prove a counterfactual. you can’t know who the worse evil would be. further it’s not clear that so-called “third party” voters actually impact elections at all unless their candidate wins.
No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
this simply isn’t true and reflects a myopic view of history. so-called third parties have been with us almost since the inception of the us, and have accomplished things inconceivable to modern politicians.
you will see that the issue is the provability of whether so-called third parties can achieve anything, and whether it’s provable that voting for them has supported a “greater evil”. i have demonstrated the success of so-called third parties, and its prima facie impossible to prove a counterfactual.
I have proved both of these things. Both With Nader and Perot, as well as showing the difference in actual progressive advancements between third-parties in Democrats is so great that there is little point in supporting a third-party — especially when the FPTP system mathematically goes against them.
But any time you want to make a bet a 3rd-party candidate winning versus one of the two primary parties, I’ll happily take that bet on money.
It’s a fact that 3rd-party lose universally all of their elections while often spoiling elections for the primary party that most-closely shares their interests. This is not a counter-factual; this is not Ad Ignorantiam.
It’s a fact that 3rd-party lose universally all of their elections while often spoiling elections for the primary party that most-closely shares their interests.
no it’s not. only a single counterexample is necessary to disprove this. but that’s not even what’s at issue here. what’s at issue is what the greater evil would have been. we cannot know what the losers of elections would have done had they won.
the civil rights act was not the work of the democrats or the republicans. it was the work of dedicated activists and, yes, other parties such as the black panther party. they exerted pressure onto the parties in government, and the parties in government acquiesced.
Yes, it was the Democrats who both supported and are primarily responsible for its passage.
… in congress. but they would have never proposed it if the writing weren’t on the wall, if the people in the streets had not made it a matter of import. giving the democrats credit is like giving bank tellers credit for financing bank robbers’ lifestyles.
I’m all for people demanding things in the streets. That’s not the same as what you’ve been suggesting, which is to vote third-party. These two things are two entirely different things.
Black Panthers didn’t hold legitimate Congressional power like Democrats. So again, thank Democrats in Congress for passing it. Something you risk spoiling by letting Republicans get into office.
nethier the civil rights act nor the legalization of same sex marriage is as concrete as a constitutional amendment, which is itself part of the constitution, and determines whether other laws are constitutional.
Any amount of research will, in fact, show that Perot did not win and 3rd-party groups routinely spoil elections without remotely advancing their own agenda they claim to care about.
perot’s campaign had a significant impact on the politics of the 90s, transforming the democrats from a party (accused of) supporting welfare to a party of … well… the fucking clintons.
He hasn’t? I’m pretty sure universal healthcare is more popular than ever among Democrats; and things like tuition reimbursement would’ve been inconceivable merely 10-years-ago.
There is ambiguity in your argument of them creeping to the right.
I’m pretty sure universal healthcare is more popular than ever among Democrats; and things like tuition reimbursement would’ve been inconceivable merely 10-years-ago.
no, they don’t. i reject the entire narrative of “spoiling” elections, as it presupposes that one party or another is owed (or owns outright) the votes. they do not. they must earn the votes, and if i so-called third party candidate earns the votes, tehy are not spoiling anything. they are doing what politicians are supposed to do: earn votes.
Historians, scholars, political-scientists all disagree. I won’t argue with the proverbial-equivalent of flat-earthers, for that’s just a denialism too far gone.
this is pigeonholing. you are trying to group me in with a (n unrelated) group of people and dismiss my valid assertions. it’s yet another mark of intellectual dishonesty
It’s an apt comparison, reflective of the non-sequitur you’re engaging in. Lacking any substantive rebuttal or sourced rebuttal, it’s a reflection of what I see in flat-earthers.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
false dichotomy. they may be familiar with the political system (even more than you or i), and not believe the same things you do. they may be a leftist. you are making up attacks on their person instead of dealing with the substance of their claims.
that’s a thought-terminating cliche like saying it’s common sense. if you can’t support your position, that’s no reason to go off attacking other people as malevolent or incompetent.
Has it? The real issue convincing those who are undecided or supportive of Israeli action; it’s less to do with the minority progressives threatening to not vote because everyone knows progressives will hold their nose. But it’s the swing-voter moderates and centrists who are less informed on the issues and easily-swayable by political talking-points — and who make up a far larger chunk of the electorate — that Biden is concerned about. When 1/3 are unsure if Israel is committing genocide and 1/3 say they’re not, that is a problem.
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.
Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.
So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.
He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
I think it’s just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.
He had no issues welcoming Nikki Haley voters to become part of his base probably because he knows how hard this election will be to win without the help of progressives and leftists. But he chose to move right instead of left, so he shouldn’t be surprised when people start treating him like a 2000s era republican.
How has he moved right? Welcoming Haley voters is a sound strategy that is not mutually-exclusive to moving left, which he absolutely has on the topic of Israel.
Welcoming Haley voters is moving right. Defunding the UNRWA is moving right. The spending bill he was happy to sign still sends billions to Israel. Also, in that bill, it would limit aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.” Biden being more than willing to sign a “snitches get stitches” bill, bullying the rest of the world into letting Israel do whatever they want surely isn’t moving left.
I suppose you’ve heard that old adage of “if a person sits at a table with 9 nazis, there are 10 nazis at the table”. When trump welcomed the proud boys to his campaign, I had no doubt in my mind he was willing to cooperate with them to enact policy that would strengthen his coalition, and I feel the same about Biden with Haley Voters. It doesn’t help your case that he’s already pretty conservative to begin with.
I suppose you’ve heard that old adage of, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” After all, we sort of utilized that during WWII to fight the nazis,
So he hasn’t moved his policies whatsoever for Haley voters; he’s only appealing to never-Trump voters in order to ensure the real fascist doesn’t get elected. You following?
Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas. We could likely go on with these in perpetuity. Also, a lot of Nazis were friends of the US considering Operation Paperclip happened.
Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he’s pretty conservative to begin with? More oil drilling than when trump was president. Horrible border policy. Strike busting. No protections against all the bigoted state level laws. No Supreme Court packing. No nominations for an attorney general who would actually prevent trump from rising to power again (likely because trump is probably the only person Biden even has a chance of beating in an election). Green energy initiatives that are so poorly thought out that it now costs more to install solar than before. Wanting to sign a bill to remove a competing social media platform under the supervision of Musk and Zuckerberg. Bypassing congress to send arms to Israel to support a genocide purely to acquire land to compete with china’s new trade route.
Biden is willing to become a hawkish republican to win on the democrat ticket and to be seen as “strong” to would-be republican voters because he knows he’s lost the left. If you’re okay with the US continually walking right with every democrat and running right with every republican, just keep doing what you’re doing.
And yet, you act as though the better alternative was not sleeping with the dogs and letting the Nazis win?
Which outcome would you have preferred? Think ahead here, my friend.
Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he’s pretty conservative to begin with?
I’m simply responding to the notion that Biden is “moving right” by appealing to Haley voters. I’ve still yet to see any evidence whatsoever of this claim. Inviting Haley voters into a preestablished structure isn’t “moving right.” Saying Biden is conservative to begin with != “moving right.” One is a present state; the other is a transitioning state that has yet to be evidenced in any capacity.
When we allied with the Soviet Union and china, we weren’t welcoming them into our country and into our political influence. We were working with them for a common cause of defeating the nazis. Biden is welcoming Haley Voters into his campaign and they will remain there even after (if) Biden wins the election. The room is full of conservatives, so it should make plenty of sense why leftists and progressives would rather leave the room than stick around people who want them dead.
If Biden moved any more right, he’d be trump. The only thing Biden has left that’s vaguely progressive is not wanting to kill people who are queer. If pinkwashed fascism is enough for you, that’s fine, but you have to understand that other people have higher standards.
I seriously doubt Haley voters will be permanently welcomed in, or rather, I doubt they’ll stay themselves. I think they’ll dip the second another Romney-esque corporate Republican comes about – and Biden is just too left of Romney for them to stay for long.
Either way, they’re a useful tool to ensure Trump doesn’t get elected. Like you said, we are working with Haley voters for “a common cause of defeating the nazis” in November. Let’s not put the cart before the horse. Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it. Let’s worry about make-up of the party after we defeat the literal nazis in November, yes?
I don’t see evidence to support the claim that Biden moving “any” more right and he’d be Trump. He’d have to transition quite a few ticks before achieving that; nevertheless, we should always embrace “less Trump” than Trump himself, so I’ll take it. The thing is, I still haven’t seen any evidence presented whatsoever that Biden as “moved right” to appeal to Haley voters. Until you can provide a modicum of evidence to this, I think your claim is dead in the water.
I’m sure nazis/stormfront/proud boys are also a useful tool for trump to get re-elected and he definitely didn’t start changing his policy to appease them… We aren’t going to agree on this, obviously. You can’t change your base without changing your policy eventually. And if Biden were to suddenly grow a spine and decide to be more progressive, the Nikki Haley voters will suddenly flip to being trump voters (or any reactionary equivalent to him) because they feel lied to. At best, Nikki Haley voters means Biden will be stuck politically, not able to move left even an inch. And at worst, he is free to move as far right as he wants due to liberals being generally okay with voting for him regardless of his support of genocide.
Biden could suddenly appeal to nazis/stormfront/proud boys if he wanted to earn their votes, too, but he clearly doesn’t. And therein lies the difference: Haley voters vs. Stormfront/proud boys. If you think there is minimal distance between these two groups then I don’t know what to say. The mere point that we can’t agree on this is exemplary as to why Biden must make concessions with the electorate in the first place in order to ensure the far-worse poison doesn’t get into the White House in November.
Until you can provide an alternative solution to rally voters to put Biden over the 270 electoral votes, this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming in my view. Nevertheless, I appreciate the cordial discussion.
Honestly (and this is the point I thought you were going to make) there are more Nikki Haley voters than leftists in this country. I think nazis/stormfront/proud boys are too many, but not enough to influence an election.
The issue I’m seeing with Biden not giving concessions to leftists and progressives is that they’re mainly the ones who have boots on the ground helping Biden get elected. Without politically active people who believe they can influence Biden helping him win, I’m not seeing any hope for his chances. The secondary effect is that once you lose leftists and progressives, they’re VERY vocal online about why they aren’t happy, which also hurts Biden’s chances. So leftists and progressives might not be as numerous as Nikki Haley voters, but they still have influence over how people perceive this administration. I’m not sure if that effect is even quantifiable, or what matters more between the Nikki haley voters who choose to vote for him or the progressives/leftists who inadvertently cause apathy. Who knows. But if he cares about winning (which is still debatable as far as I’m concerned), he’d start giving concessions fast.
I see your concerns and find many of your points reasonable here. If you could be more explicit about what concessions to progressives he could give that he hasn’t already and wouldn’t otherwise jeopardizing another key voting-bloc in swing-states with swing-votes nonetheless, I’d be really interested to know. In that respect – even among long-time progressives – Biden has been one of the more progressive Presidents we’ve had. Even Bernie, AOC , Warren agree.
What I’m saying is I think it’s clear that Bernie sat down with Biden in order to receive his endorsement, put Bernie in a leading budgetary role, and Biden pivoted left relative to where he was, say, 10-years-ago.
Circling back to my comment before: How far can he capitulate before it backfires with another voting bloc and again risks the literal nazi winning in just 8 months time?
I’ll give you a glimpse into leftist spaces real quick: most people in there thinks Bernie, AOC, Warren, and even Katie porter are sellouts/traitors due to being slow or silent on their support of global colonialist projects. Likening them to a Kristen Sinema-esque person in progressive’s clothing. Having them agree with Biden not only reinforces this opinion leftists have of them, but it becomes plainly obvious that none of them would have jobs anymore if Biden doesn’t win, so it’s in their best interest to capitulate towards the status quo.
If he was to break our arms partnerships with Israel and abstains from all future UN votes on Israel (which in no means fixes the situation here or abroad), I’m sure progressives could go back to holding their nose and voting for him. Honestly, so much shit needs to be addressed that’s being ignored. The fact that there’s multiple “cop cities” being built in the US is appalling and worthy of withholding voting for someone who won’t address that alone, but still, progressives and leftists are used to holding our noses when it comes to horrific things we vote for, which is probably why hearing that we might be withholding due to genocide, liberals are collectively freaking out.
As far as the limits of his capitulation, he doesn’t have to worry about liberals as they’ll vote for him even if he’s literally committing a genocide, so I’m not worried about them unless gas prices start to rise and they blame him for it. Republicans have been poisoned against democrats for decades- I honestly think maybe only 5% of Nikki haley voters would consider voting for Biden. The Arab community are watching their homes and families getting decimated with the help of Biden, so it’d honestly be hard to win them back through capitulation (even though he should try). Leftists and to a greater extent progressives are the people phone banking, going door to door, getting people registered, working polls, etc, and while their numbers aren’t great, losing them is really rough for his chances at winning.
I think if he broke our arms deals, the right would scream that he’s pro-hamas like they’ve been doing this whole time. CNN and other establishment news agencies might also saying that too since their profits relies on the status quo staying firm and headlines being emotionally charged. Immediately AIPAC donations would be halted and they would push candidates who are pro Israel to run against anyone who calls what is happening a genocide (this is already happening). Winning statewide elections would become more difficult if Biden capitulates to leftists and progressives with regards to financing a campaign. I think the backfire is less against a specific voting bloc and more with the sudden stoppage of political donations. Maybe he’s waiting until AIPAC can’t sponsor competition for state elections before voting season, but it’s at the cost of Palestinian lives obviously. I’m also of a mind that the better and more relatable your ideas are, the less campaign money you need to advertise (to a certain extent). So honestly, if Biden wanted to be really sure he’d win instead of just winning back progressives and leftists, he should honestly pull out all the stops and push for popular policies. Call on congress to kill the filibuster and pack the court if you need to.
Thanks for the insight, I mean it. There is much agree with here — namely this: That the progressive grassroots organizers are the backbone of this country and that lacking voter-enthusiasm can cripple the momentum of the election, even if they vote themselves. I’ve made the same argument countless times when discussing the pitfalls of Hillary and to a lesser extent the risks to Biden. I also do agree there is merit to advocating for a policy that while it may be unpopular is the right thing to do. People with convictions are attractive; that’s what distinguishes a good leader from an average leader — one who can see ahead of the curve and convince people of a direction before they get there. Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left. What the polls are will likely be where they remain for many of these issues.
My response breaks down across 4 main points:
Whether liberals will break with Biden, or whether progressives will — and really, neither of these groups will likely break. These aren’t the swing-voters in swing-states. What, are progressives who are traditionally the most-educated and civic-engaged ideological group suddenly decide to let Trump win? How will that advance their goals except for taking 2 or more steps back?
The vast majority of the shit that needs addressed and is being ignored as you mention is a direct result of the GOP obstructionism, combined with systemic such as the Supreme Court and Electoral College — NOT because Democrats don’t desire to do it. Every single thing Biden is doing is related to how popular things are; that’s the problem: appealing to millions of people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Sure you and I want the filibuster removed, but low-educated rural swing-voters in Ohio, Nevada, Arizona don’t even know what a filibuster is.
I worry there’s an element to the leftist movement that armchair purity tests at the cost of advancing progress. Instead of recognizing Bernie and AOC for what they’re doing — actually running for office and seeing how the system operates from the inside — there are a lot who just cast them off as never being on their side in the first place, which I personally think is heavily myopic. In other words: What’s more likely: that Bernie, AOC, Warren are traitors, or the Lemmy crowd of tankies of sub-22-year-olds are woefully out-of-touch with reality all the while possibly being subject to right-wing astroturfing to wedge-drive?
Yes the right-wing media machine will constantly call Biden Pro-Hamas, but it won’t stick as effectively with critical swing-voters and apathetics as if he, for example, withdrew aid. Forget the the massive risk again in doing so when if Israel suffers another October 7th then everyone will paint Biden as leaving Israel defenseless and antisemitic. This is simply not good optics and would give the propaganda from the right legitimate bite with said swing-voters. I’m no advisor to Biden but if I was this would certainly be a consideration, for I don’t even rule out a false-flag for Netanyahu.
Amazing discourse! Also, apologies in advance for being all over the place with my response because ADHD and dyslexia are hard when trying not to look like an idiot online haha.
Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left.
This is kind of where we might differ here. Where Biden is staunchly pro-israel, his advisors know how much this issue is affecting his polling and could possibly get him to reverse his position if it becomes clear his position will lose him the election. I think that Biden’s difficult decision is between doing the right thing, knowing that there could be a false flag attack that will happen and cause immense blowback against him among moderates (as well as known civilian casualties) or doing the politically expedient thing and waiting it out and hoping people forget about Palestine (guaranteeing civilian casualties) before November to prevent trump becoming president.
I think a big thing causing apathy is the fact that conservative voters want to break things and republican representatives happily oblige their requests, where the liberals and progressives generally want rights enshrined, which is nearly impossible with how this government is currently set up to run, so liberals and progressives never really get what they want unless it’s attached to some pro-corporate or anti-privacy bill (or is watered down by republicans who just want to break it). From the perspective of someone not on the right, it seems like the government is broken because important things are never passed and terrible things are always passed. At some point, you start to think it’s by design since the people who represent you never fight for you like the republican representatives fight “for their constituents” (there’s a whole conversation about manufactured consent and propaganda to be had here, but to a conservative person, they at least are getting what they’ve been convinced they want).
I think some leftists are also accelerationists and would rather the worst case scenario happen so we as a society have to face the problems we’ve caused instead of slowly bleeding out, one minority group at a time. I’m not sure I’d put myself in this group, but knowing where our tax dollars are sent and seeing the carnage it creates even under a democratic president has made me view the system as inherently abusive. Being told that any amount of genocide could be classified as a “lesser evil” is such a wild take in my opinion and I’m not sure I could ever see a perspective in which my morals could bend like that to accommodate a president who would at least make my life easier than the other person when both of them have genocidal intent.
This is getting to be long and ranty, so I should probably address your 4 points.
“How will letting trump win advance leftist goals” Metaphorically, if this was the trolly problem, leftists would rather push the trolly off the tracks or remove the people from the rails rather than pull the lever. If trump were to win and America did descend into a hellscape, I’d hope that anyone moderate and to the left would be willing to not accept that as reality. It would be 2 steps back, 10 steps forward if done correctly, which is way easier said than done, but if fascism’s legitimately knocking at the door, you don’t let it waltz in. You fix the gate outside so fascists can’t get to your door again. Biden has appointed Garland to oversee the process to keep fascism out, which has failed spectacularly because securing our electoral process against fascists wasn’t as important as possibly creating a political martyr. Just the fact that Trump is able to run again after J6 is reason enough for a lot of people to believe this political process has become farcical.
“Things that need addressing are being blocked by the GOP” This will never not be the case though. It feels like we’re stuck in a purgatory where the democrats can continually to slide to the right and we’re forced to vote for them because a lame duck political party can never be worse than a fascist one. All while giving away our privacy, our ability to purchase a house or have the financial means to raise a child, our labor rights, our public land, our 3rd spaces, our clean water, etc because the alternative would be all of this plus fascism. It’s not a democratic choice at this point. Either we have a malignant group who wants to destroy America or we choose the alternative however bad they might also be. Would people be okay voting for trump if hitler was running against him? At what point do you throw up your arms and say something has to change? That point for me and many others is now.
“are progressive representatives traitors or is something else going on” I think there’s probably some nuance missing specifically with these representatives when it comes to Israel Palestine. To change their tune on something that has been propagandized to us for decades as well as the collective understanding that antizionism actually isn’t the same as antisemitism, I can give a bit of grace for politicians being slow to act or even speak when trying to also not embolden racists. Having a megaphone that big can cause a lot of damage if you speak too quickly. But being 6 months late feels long regardless. And feeling like you no longer are represented by someone who calls themselves progressive is fair, so it’s up to them to make it up to constituents and it’s up to constituents to forgive and restore support if positive and real action is made. I do suspect there is quite a bit of astro turfing going on everywhere honestly. Propaganda like that works because it takes existing issues and amplifies them to become a political flashpoint. But this isn’t “teachers are putting litter boxes in classrooms because kids identify as cats” here. It’s live footage of kids getting bombed from our phone and knowing Biden is bypassing congress to make it happen. It’s a legitimate concern whether it has been amplified or not. I’m open to hear why I should consider their lives less important than mine, but I’m not sure I’m going to budge on my views there.
“Biden acting against Israel majorly affects moderates and their likelihood to vote for him as well as a false flag attack being likely to have massive blowback” I fully agree with you here. If there is another attack right after Biden pulls aid, it doesn’t matter if it was the right thing to do, Biden will be crucified for it. I suppose we should get some counterintelligence people over there to make sure to prevent something like that. But even if Biden were to step down if another attack happened, I’m not sure if any moderate would vote for a democrat for a couple election cycles. Unfortunately for this game of political chess, I don’t adjust my moral line in the sand based on popularity. If there was ever an issue to be a single issue voter on, I suspect it might be this one.
No worries I can relate and appreciate the comment and apologies for taking so long to respond. Holidays, work, etc. For the record this will likely be my final response and I’ll oblige you with the final word
When we talk about “lesser” genocide, I’m referring to any friction, any resistance, any braking – if that means merely one less death than the inevitable alternative, then we should logically take that. I don’t have to like either option, but it’s always wiser to take the less-potent poison when it’s a forced dichotomy.
Like you I can’t reside in that camp of accelerationist “let it all crash and burn” because entropy dictates that picking up the pieces will be orders-of-magnitude more cost-intensive in all resources including time and lives.
Genocidal Intent is another thing; for I believe Trump has full intent of genocide while Biden does not have the intent of genocide. I think it is imperative we recognize that it is Netanyahu specifically committing genocide.
With respect to protesting Biden, not voting, and letting Trump in yet somehow derailing him as the proverbial trolly in a manner presumably akin to January 6th, I think that’s just a bridge too far. Why let it go that far to begin with when you can put the brakes on now while transforming the Democratic party as the nation shifts from being less conservative to more progressive as the old boomers die off?
This is the problem we have at hand: The vast majority of this country is still more conservative than we care to admit, and while there are people like us who are far ahead of the curve, we have to drag these people along with us like a ball-and-chain. We have to spoon-feed them reality at the right time and place, such as legalizing same-sex marriage, marijuana legalization, universal healthcare, etc… And eventually, we do get them to finally “catch up,” but it takes time.
I’m not too much of a fan of the idea of violent revolution; after all I have my kids to think of and we have all the tools at our disposal to avoid that right here and right now. Further I have to part ways with you on Garland, for I think he’s doing a fantastic job. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You can have a strong legal case, or a fast legal case – but you can’t have both. Especially when concerning the unprecedented nature of the charges and status of the person you’re indicting – mostly because of the great amount of outside money that will prop up and defend Trump as your department will be smeared as a political witch-hunt. Garland is a straight-shooter in my book, and it was genius to appoint Jack Smith as special counsel. Whether it comes in time and whether the stacked SCOTUS will impact this is obviously the question, but perhaps we shouldn’t have abandoned Obama in crucial midterms both in 2010 and 2014 and this wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place.
I respectfully object to the notion that the GOP blocking everything will be a constant. I’m not sure how old you are but I remember a time when the line between the two parties was so blurred they really could be the same. Especially circa 2001-2003. It’s incredible we have progressives like AOC and Bernie and Warren who are taking senior leadership roles and who have legitimate influence over the party. Such individuals didn’t even exist within the Democratic coalition in Congress. Republicans are desperate. They know the writing is on the wall for their party. Their voting demographic is literally dying away and they are making enough inroads with other minority groups without ultimately disenfranchising the very base that is keeping them afloat: white males who are very often racist and bigoted. They’ve forked themselves, and every 4 years that drags by yields more to the Millennials and Zoomer generation. It’s almost inevitable they go the way of the Whigs, which is why they are so scared. Either way, I don’t feel this changes my original point which is to say that Biden cannot be blamed for not being more progressive when even the progressive policies he implements — such as a tuition bailout for the working-class — is blocked by the Right. Doesn’t matter WHO you put in there, that would be a given. So first we must focus on convincing people to join hands and wipe Republicans out. Only then we can focus on policy and the direction of the country.
If it were between Hitler and Trump I’d vote Trump out of his sheer incompetence but it would still be a problem; but let’s also not pretend that that the choices are remotely comparable to these; for I believe that’s woefully disingenuous. Biden has many good intentions but again are blocked by the other side. Meanwhile Hitler and Trump effectively share the identical ideological banner.
With respect to progressives perceiving the likes of AOC and Bernie, I must lean to the notion that they are still more informed on the nuances of the issues compared to the average critics thereof. More importantly they see the bigger picture of what is at stake. They know Biden is persuadable. They know Biden at least has concerns about Palestinians. They know Trump would NEVER say that Israel is committing “indiscriminate bombing.” They know there is no chance of withdrawing aid to Israel with Trump. They do know, however, there is a chance with Biden. Moreover such progressives absolutely did raise concerns sooner than 6 months; the only problem is that they know they can give the rope to let Israel hang themselves and in turn you USA can be perceived as reacting to their documented atrocities as opposed to getting ahead of polling and jeopardizing losing the election and letting the significantly-worse threat to Palestinians get in for 4 years. That is the gambit at play.
So my thought-process if distilled to bullet-points goes something like this:
Trump is far worse than Biden for both Palestinians, Ukrainians, and the American people.
The rematch and choice of these two candidates is inevitable.
Biden must therefore win the 2024 election.
Biden must toe the line between progressives and larger more critical voting-blocs of apathetic/ignorant swing-voters (of who 1/3 are undecided on Israeli actions and 1/3 support their actions), and progressive activists.
Biden cannot get ahead of the polls without risking reelection
Biden cannot withdraw aid without setting himself up for a false-flag.
The Democrats are softly pulling themselves away from Israel, which I think is the smart move.
Whoops. I was signed out and just now realized I had this notification. I do think a lot of our differences is just perspective that have led on to very different outcomes. I do appreciate the discussion, sincerely, because as someone who was in the liberal camp for the longest time, it’s weird to feel such ire all the time from those same kinds of people online.
Here’s some of the perspective differences we have:
You have a kid, where me and my partner have decided that the world is probably too fucked to ever want to bring a kid into this world. I can see how that would make you more protective of a status quo that keeps you and your family relatively safe where I see how so many people are struggling and me and my partner are willing to fight to make it right. I don’t think either of us are wrong for these perspectives and I’d likely be where you are if I had children (and thought well enough about the future to want children).
2001-2003 was a wild time where everyone collectively decided that becoming more of an authoritarian surveillance state was a good thing under the guise of national security. I’m not sure if I’d consider the democrats sliding to agree with republicans on almost everything something that we should have rose tinted glasses on.
Both of us seem to be playing out our own version of “make the right decision, not the easy decision”
AOC and Sanders aren’t, in my opinion, more measurably left than others in government nearly a decade ago. Harry Truman was pushing hard for Universal healthcare. Also In the Revenue act of 1935, there was a progressive tax rate of 75% for the top bracket. (that’s only 37% today, and oftentimes many loopholes and tax havens make this percentage much lower). Bernie, I think, was mainly pushing for wealth, corporate, and estate tax changes, and they seem on par or less strong than the tax plans from ~90 years ago. I love both Sanders and AOC’s views on their civic duty, but it will always feel like it falls short when AOC celebrates “taxing the rich” by instituting a 1% tax on stock buybacks when those shouldn’t even be legal in the first place. And yes, I get that they’re trying their hardest, but the issue is that both of them are fought hard by the rest of the democratic party and seen as antichrists from the republican party. Would republican voters who are struggling hate bernie sanders and AOC if they weren’t being propagandized by every media outlet out there that their proposals were idealistic, unrealistic, and wasteful instead of doing things that would directly help them? It’s a complicated series of cogs that make this machine work, so I can only judge democrats by what they as a group do rather than what a few of them want. I refuse to be swayed by the carrot and the string politics anymore by believing that democrats will all join hands around any policy bernie and AOC has without watering it down to make republicans more happy, only for republicans to water it down further, only for republicans to kill that bill.
These democrats won’t wipe out the republicans without also wiping themselves out since both of them are parties that primarily support the growth of capital, not health/safety of residents, not equitability, not ethics, not the health of the planet. If those other things come, it won’t come at the cost of capital (and to a lesser degree political power). Democrats know they don’t have to sacrifice the capital of corporations to make the lives of citizens better because the only ones fighting for labor/human rights are a tiny minority of representatives and there’ll always be someone there to block it, whether they are republican or democrat. There can always be a sacrificial lamb that can be propped up on the ballot if it helps maintain capital. Even people who ran as progressive democrats can suddenly change their affiliation to republican after winning the election if it benefits capital. Even if Democrats encompass sinema and manchin. This is why the status quo needs to change and the parties need to die. The parties don’t die by continuing to tell them to keep going on like they have been.
“I respectfully object to the notion that the GOP blocking everything will be a constant.”
There will always be people who will be resistant to seeing change in the tangible world whether it’s the GOP or not. And they will continue to be voted on by people who agree with them. I suspect democrats will be this group in the future if they manage to outlive the republicans. Change can be extremely scary, especially when it seems like the entire world is becoming more and more fascist, so I can see why someone with a child would want to protect the status quo at all cost. This fucked up world might give your child a full life at least. If too much changed too quickly, it might be too difficult to think about what impacts it might have on your child’s life. I concede that there’ll likely be nothing I can say that can change the protective nature of a parent, and while I wish I was as optimistic as you, I’ve seen too many bloody limbs that were caused by my comfort to continue in my comfort since the only things I really have to protect are my partner and our dog. Both of us have a lot to lose with a trump presidency and we know a lot of people like us do as well. I’ve voted democrat down ballot my whole life and me and so many of my friends feel entirely betrayed by the democratic party as a whole- so much that our relationship has shifted from odd-bedfellows to a malignant force that keeps a husk of a party (republicans) legitimate by only being a little more popular than them. I don’t believe that the vast majority of voting americans are just to the left of literal fascism. There’s a reason why civic apathy is so high- they don’t see anything they want being proposed or protected. If republicans win this upcoming election, that doesn’t upset the democrats’ main goal of securing capital. I’m sure some of them can even write a few books on their experience during another trump presidency. But if a theoretical party existed that helped out the vast majority of americans by making things easier, cheaper, and more transparent, that would upset both the democrat and republican’s goal of securing capital. This is why leftists say things akin to “both sides”. They aren’t the same. They’ve very different. But they’re both pro-capital and it’s very obvious that’s what they fight for over anything else.
Speaking of biden’s views on Israel, he seems to be more vocally zionist than any other president in my lifetime. Trump might be racist against arabs, but biden’s zionism is colonialism + being racist against arabs (even if not vocally racist like trump). I’m not saying trump would be better for palestine. He likely would ramp up things just to look strong in comparison to biden- not because he has any idea what’s going on. But that also assumes palestine will still be there when trump is sworn in.
The trump vs hitler question wasn’t meant to be trying to compare biden with either of them- I mainly wanted to see how far along you’d believe in and participate in this system even if you know that both choices are actively bad. Would it have to be hitler vs pol pot before you consider rising up instead of believing that voting will help in a meaningful way? I’d like to believe everyone has a line whether they know it or not. A system that allows a trump to run and win is a system not designed for us to succeed. And I’m not even against voting- I think local elections are extremely important. I just really don’t think a single person with unilateral control over our military actions is a good idea. Actions related to war should require unanimous consent so it rarely happens. But it isn’t because securing resources for energy production or land to create capital is easily possible for someone who can be the sacrificial lamb if the populace isn’t sufficiently convinced that the people we’re bombing aren’t evil enough. The capitalistic machine marches forward regardless of the happiness of the populace.
The rematch and choice of these two candidates is inevitable.
This is elder abuse at this point to run them. One or both of them might die during the campaign. And at this point, it might be the best case scenario since I can’t see either of them stepping down.
Hamas releasing all hostages in exchange for a cease-fire.
But they won’t. The PR bonanza — successful, by the sound of apparently ~99% of this community — at the expense of civilian innocents has been too good to stop anything, yet.
I’m wondering just how damageable in terms of geopolitics would a deterioration of relations with Israel be. Cause it has to be huge to justify not acting on this genocide. What stops Biden/US from acting ? what can I read to better understand this issue ?
the US sees Israel as the only thing it can control in the middle east. it was always meant to be one of a few “pro-democracy beachheads” in the area, with the US attempting to make iraq work the same way in the 2000s. The idea was to put Israel in a position where they were powerful compared to their enemies but dependent on foreign aid, so that they could do whatever they want as long as they also did whatever we want. This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook - you don’t send people to take over, and instead you elevate one local group from second or third place to the top and then make sure they never develop enough power that they can remain on top without your help. If you do this successfully, you can control them completely because all you have to do to send them tumbling from power is nothing when they’re counting on your support.
Up until now, the impact of helping Israel didn’t have to be all that massive because the impact of Israeli violence against Palestinians (edit: ON THE OPINION OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN) wasn’t either. What you’re seeing is a replay of the US allowing anyone with a camera to report from Vietnam - the narrative used to be pretty tightly controlled but between Palestinian social media updates and Israel’s internal jingoistic propaganda being leaked to the western world it’s becoming harder and harder to sustain the whole ‘most moral army in the world engaged in a limited defensive operation that respects the right of all law-abiding people to live in peace’ narrative. We see them shooting at people gathered around aid trucks now. We hear them talking about “children of light vs children of darkness”, “every Palestinian is a terrorist because they all support Hamas” and seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos. Americans tend to like war in theory, but we have a strong sense of fair play and we’ll only stay on board up to a certain amount of video of unarmed people being mowed down by soldiers. This is why they’re simultaneously softening their position on Palestine and moving to seize the only major social media outlet that isn’t US-based (and therefore isn’t able to be pressured about ‘misinformation’ the way that FB, X, reddit, etc are). It’s a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they’re never again put in a position where they’re beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.
seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos
Whoever buys that land to make those needs to be harassed for the rest of their lives. That’s absolute scum of the earth bullshit. Religion and real estate all in one gigantic shit storm… Literally the worst humanity has to offer.
point one is also why the chosen rhetoric in opposition of the genocide is targeted at Netanyahu specifically rather than the entire administration, because rather than loosing relations with Israel as a country, the US wants to oust Netanyahu and have someone else they support take his place. That way they can keep their post-colonial pet in the middle east without looking like they’re (still) supporting a genocide.
The problems with this, though, are:
the US would still be engaged in a post-colonial imperialist action in the Middle East
the broader Israel-Palestine relationship will almost certainly stay the same regardless, and I think a lot of American’s opinion on Israel has been pretty irrevocably damaged since this new phase of conflict started.
you’re absolutely right. nothing good ever happens just because it’s good, and this is no different. brandon is currently trying to figure out a way to keep power in both America and the middle east, and built into the british model for post-settler-colonial hegemony is the precise lever that he’s trying to pull. Namely “either you quit fucking this up for me or I’ll fuck everything up for you so badly that you’ll cease to exist”
This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook
Which was historically just a way to prolong defeat. I wonder why don’t Israelis see that they are going to end up like Rhodesia, if they don’t choose some other strategy of existence for themselves.
It’s a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they’re never again put in a position where they’re beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.
If it is about Israel being the one thing the US can control in the middle east, I wonder then if this is not the US realizing it is losing control of their asset.
Israel uses a significant amount of the $$ the US gives them to lobby (IOW, bribe) members of the US political parties to support them. Including giving them more $$, in a positive feedback loop. The lobbied polits in effect give themselves money along with what Israel keeps.
Yes but when so much especially militarily relies on it, there is a big transition period where you/Europe/East Asia are vulnerable and hoping that Texas is enough
I am pro nuclear but I realize the biggest problem with it is that it is a military target
‘We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,’ the State Department said
What a strange comment. They’re being genocided. I’m imagining someone in WW2 being like “well now you suddenly care about Jews when you find out the holocaust is happening”, as if that was a bad thing.
It is a bad thing, because it correctly indicates that those people didn’t care about the creation and growth of the social conditions that caused that genocide in the first place.
Gaza didn’t turn into a killing field and prison overnight. This has been designed for decades by Israel. We are all culpable fools for allowing it to ever deteriorate to this point
That’s true. And personally I feel really bad that I was only aware of the history of this conflict very recently, too. But it’s good that people are changing their minds and opening their eyes. We shouldn’t shame them, but pat them on the backs for coming around. Keep in mind that the US especially has been inundated with a crazy amount of propaganda surrounding Israel for a long time. Lots of these latecomers are victims, not willingly ignorant. People have spent millions of dollars lobbying to keep it that way. (Not just Jewish people, it’s not some conspiratorial Jewish cabal before the wrong type of poeple jump on agreeing with my comment lol. The military industrial complex is involved and lots of other actors interested in Middle Eastern affairs and Christian zealotry.)
Agreed, and certainly anyone who has come around and had their eyes opened to what Zionism is should be praised for doing so.
But I don’t see anything wrong with stigmatizing a prior failure to discern the truth. While it is true that immense propaganda has facilitated the brainwashing of Americans for decades, it is still our responsibility as human beings, and as voters, to always seek truth. Failure to accurately do so is a failing and should be viewed as such
I was sort of a benevolent fascist on the issue - I liked the idea of Jews returning to Israel after many centuries and having their state there, but I considered Israeli control over any territory not populated by its citizens to be wrong and cruel.
So I thought that Israel should clearly and unambiguously annex what it wants with giving citizenship to all people there, and GTFO from other territories. Naturally the choice being a compromise between the amount of new Arab voters and citizens they want to get on and the territory they want.
Which would really be the optimal solution for them, if we drop morals, only they are fascists without any kind of “benevolent” part. I even think the cruelty is the main goal.
Israelis have that inferiority complex of not being real West Asian people culturally. The ridiculous way they talk about “that’s how things are done in the Middle-East” etc is the most obvious sign of this. They want to show that cruelty to feel that they are the real thing and not the fake nation they are in fact.
Americans have cared about arabs one way or the other since 2001, we had wars over this, we took in refugees and interpreters. No one older than 12 thinks this is sudden.
It’s a stretch to say that going to war in the middle east indicated “care” about/for Arab people.
Also, I haven’t checked but I’d bet good money that we’ve gone back on more promises than we’ve actually honored WRT interpreters.
Meaning, to be clear:
We’ve promised a lot of interpreters U.S. visas / citizenship if they helped us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and have probably blocked more from entry to the U.S. than we have allowed.
That is utterly fucked up, and I don’t see why anyone would trust such promises from the U.S. in the future.
Please explain in clear terms what actions on the part of Joe Biden are consistent with any definition of the term fascism. Please provide the definition you are using for reference.
If you cannot substantiate your blatantly ignorant statement, please shut the hell up.
He acts as fascist by defining himself as a democrat when at the same time he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
It is the way contemporary fascism operates, publicly defining itself as one thing while at the same time acting contrary to the ideals they supposedly represent.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
No. You provide the definition that you’re using. I won’t go on a wild goose chase to try to find a basis for your argument. You provide a basis for your argument.
he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
You realize that the US is bound by several preexisting agreements with Israel right? And that those agreements can’t just be dropped due to the changing wind of public opinion?
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
Was Hungary part of the Axis in WW2? Yes? Then the US absolutely can and should be blamed for supporting a genocidal government in Israel, just as Hungary was blamed for siding with Nazis when their only interest was keeping their borders.
An annoying side effect of the rise of Republican fascism has been some leftist critics labeling everything they don’t like as fascist, even when it makes absolutely no sense.
To be clear, this is like a pet peeve level of annoying compared to all the other shit going on. It’s not in my top 10 things to be concerned about, but damn if it isn’t annoying.
People can say whatever they want, but it’s actions that matter. And his actions have generally been supportive of Israel, including going around Congress to give them aid and weapons and vetoing UN resolutions for ceasefires.
No, instead we watched his actions. Such as banning aid for the UNRWA, blocking Un resolutions against Israel, sidestepping congress to ship them weapons, ensuring billions in funding go their way.
But wow he was totally mean to them in a speech, i guess thats what matters.
UN Security Council passes resolution calling for Gaza ceasefire2 days ago By Raffi Berg,BBC NewsWatch: Moment UN passes Gaza ceasefire resolution
The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, after the US did not veto the measure in a shift from its previous position. It also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. It is the first time the council has called for a ceasefire since the war began in October after several failed attempts. The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel’s offensive in Gaza.
Seems like action to me. Yeah a lot more needs to be done, but his words and actions are meeting.
I’m not sure if calling “the US chose to finally stop vetoing UN resolutions” as action. They didn’t vote in the affirmative. By the time the current administration does something to actually change things like refusing to send weapons, there won’t be any more Palestinians left who haven’t forever lost their family, home, or life.
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