Exactly, she’s probably made a huge profit selling her defence contractor shares and now she wants Biden to stop, so the price tanks and she can buy them back again cheap, to sell at the next war
Pelosi is also a reasonably savvy politician. Even if you look at her as a soulless political monster, she probably sees that American support of Israel has been steadily falling and the Israeli attack on aid workers may be the last straw for a lot of Americans. Therefore, it is imperitive to lay down political cover for Biden to halt military aid transfers to Israel.
She retired from being leader, is she not still the representative? Her wikipedia page seems to indicate she’s active, the article indicates the same. Are you sure she’s retired LoL? Like from being a politician…not just from being leader.
Are not all these weapon transfers laws that have already been voted on months and even years ago sometimes? Didn’t she probably vote for some of these?
Not quite that simple - authorization was voted on long ago in some cases but it’s up to the executive branch how and when to actually send them. They’re usually approved in big blocks which go out over time on no required-by-law schedule.
I think she probably voted for them back when being for Israel was a way to get votes, and now being for Israel is a way to lose votes, and now she’s alarmed and deeply concerned about the plight of the Palestinian people, all of a sudden. Whatever. If it leads to less support for Israel I’m at least happy that her insider trading ass is on the right side even if only very slightly and only by accident.
I also 100% agree with whoever it was that said call your representatives and encourage them to get on board too.
Lol these people were sleeping till now because it was just a bunch of brown people getting murdered en-mass. The moment some white folk died they care.
Pelosi herself accused protesters advocating for this exact thing of being “paid by Putin” back when it was “just” tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians and hundreds of Israel-critical journalists being murdered by the fascist apartheid regime…
And then she changed her mind and picked a more moral position. Would you rather the letter that Pelosi signed help end the US arms transfer to Israel or not?
I’m not complaining about her changing her mind, I’m complaining that she didn’t do so 30k+ dead civilians ago and pointing out that her reasons probably have nothing to do with morality or listening to the people.
True, however, when you’re asking for political change you don’t refuse the help of politicians switching sides. Especially senior ones, because they may be doing a trial balloon. And if the public refuses them they won’t see an upside to continuing that change. Instead they will retreat and focus on their base. So on the off chance this is a real attempt to shift policy we should be nicer to her for a minute. Show the mainstream democrats that we’re willing to vote for them if they meet us.
We’ll that’s interesting. She’s as mainstream as Democrats come. I was wondering a few days ago if Israel had had it’s Walter Cronkite moment with this strike. I guess I’ll be cautiously optimistic for a few days.
Looking over the comments I see absolutely no one that is pro genocide. Pretty much all the viewpoints are sensible: Unanimously anti-Israel, sometimes skeptically approving of Pelosi doing something good for once.
For what reason could you be painting the picture of an outlandish strawman view opposed to your own which doesn’t exist, I wonder
My point is that his coming in here saying “genocide is bad!” is meeting with 0 resistance but instead full throated agreement from everybody, yet he’s still claiming there must be pro genocide people, I guess implying that is the only reason anyone could possibly disagree with him on other issues, or accuse him of being a Russian plant (*), is that they like genocide and for no factual well reasoned reason
(*) Or, more generally, dishonest; I have no idea if he’s Russian specifically or not
My point is that his coming in here saying “genocide is bad!” is meeting with 0 resistance
What unmitigated horseshit. You dare call me dishonest after posting this lie. I’ve attracted the attention of lemmy’s two most strident supporters of Netanyahu’s genocide. I don’t like mentioning downvotes, but you brought up resistance. Have a look at how many genocide loving centrists took personal offense at my speculation about Pelosi and downvoted me.
So then I said, you're conflating someone disagreeing with you which lots of people do for valid reasons, with supporting genocide which pretty much no one on Lemmy does.
And then you said, how DARE you say no one supports genocide when so many people are disagreeing with me, which by definition means they're pro genocide.
So then I said, you’re conflating someone disagreeing with you which lots of people do for valid reasons, with supporting genocide which pretty much no one on Lemmy does.
They don’t tell me their “valid reasons.” They just scream the usual garbage “Russian Chinese Tankie Republican child shill bot” shit that centrists say when they can’t actually argue their point.
What “valid reasons” are there to support the continued sales of weapons that are being used for genocide?
So then I said, dude no one's actually supporting genocide
And then you said la la la, I can't HEEAR you, they're such bad unreasonable people all these people in the thread who love Israel's war and want the weapons flow to continue, like look at the top 3 comments in this thread for example and see how not at all unanimous is the "genocide bad" consensus, that's totally exactly why people are downvoting me is because they love love love genocide sooooo much
Centrists respond with false accusations, abuse, condescension, dismissal, and gaslighting. They do not respond with their “valid reasons” for disagreeing with “Biden should stop supporting genocide,” but they certainly make it clear that they hate anyone who says it.
What conclusion should I draw from that other than “centrists support genocide”?
I know you’re going to try to limit the scope of discussion to this thread alone, as though my original comment wasn’t based on the broader context of centrists calling people who want Biden to stop selling weapons that he knows will be used for genocide “russian.”
If you claim that you’ve never seen it happen anywhere on lemmy, you’re lying.
So take a look at something like this -- this person is saying Biden supports genocide and that's bad, and only that, and they're getting almost unanimous upvotes and only one comment, which is agreement.
In contrast, your comments which say Biden supports genocide and also saying some additional statements in addition, don't get the same reception.
What do you think is the difference? Why did people like this person's post so much, if being against genocide in your world is this wildly unpopular maverick stance to take within Lemmy politics?
What additional statements did I lead with there? Oh yeah, I must be making shit up because you don’t want to accept that saying that Biden should not support genocide - by itself without anything additional - brings out hostility right here on lemmy.
Interesting. What do you think causes the difference in reception between your simple statement and @fiend_unpleasant's? I have my theory but I'm curious what you think.
I wonder what the reply to that user said before it was removed.
I think centrists’ opinion regarding Netanyahu’s genocide has shifted since the deliberate targeting of aid trucks from World Central Kitchen. Tens of thousands of Gazans are dead, and this isn’t the first aid convoy Israel has destroyed during this genocide, but it’s the first one operated by a celebrity chef.
fiend_unpleasant: I mean materially supporting genocide is pretty fucking bad
abcdqfr: It's almost like this two party system was always a bad idea advised against from the start by George Washington at the inception of this removed.
fiend_unpleasant: OMG 10000 times this. I have spent so many nights screaming into the dark over this point
I think centrists' opinion regarding Netanyahu's genocide has shifted
So... now they don't support genocide anymore, now that the food trucks were destroyed?
What's the reason then why they were so hostile to your comment in this thread (which came after the food trucks were destroyed) in a way they weren't hostile to fiend_unpleasant's?
So… now they don’t support genocide anymore, now that the food trucks were destroyed?
No, they still support genocide. They’re just questioning that support now that the dead include the celebrity-adjacent.
What’s the reason then why they were so hostile to your comment
Well, one of them was Cryophilia. Search his username in the modlog to see what he’s all about. I’m pretty sure you already know, though.
Another is you, and we’ve butted heads before.
I can only speculate about downvotes that were unaccompanied by comments. I already said I thought that they were personally offended. In any event, I was referring to a pattern of behavior I had noticed and that you’re pretending isn’t a thing.
I do understand what you're claiming is happening; you don't need to keep repeating it. I'm pointing out that it doesn't make a lot of sense. When you're not around throwing bad-faith arguments into the mix that people feel the need to disagree with, we're all very coherently and sensibly on the anti genocide team. So like by way of direct example here's me comparing the Biden state department to Nazi-era German businessmen doing business with the Nazis. 17 upvotes no downvotes for the anti genocide anti Biden-doing-bad-things view, from before the world kitchen killings. I could cite some other examples... but what's the point.
I have no idea if your absolute repetitious insistence that we're all maniacs with cartoonishly evil and wrong opinions is because you're on the clock and it may not be plausible but it's the best you can come up with, or that's genuinely what you think, but it seems like leading you up to the point by trying to illustrate by example and ask questions to lead you to the point isn't working.
Oh well. I tried. Best of luck with it; feel free to keep thinking whatever you like thinking.
I don’t buy your arguments. You interpret this as me not understanding them.
Your comment drips with condescension, gaslighting, and abuse. You call me a shill and an idiot.
We’re talking about genocide. Genocide is both evil and wrong. Support for genocide is both evil and wrong. There is no moral ambiguity here. Your patronizing attempt to abuse the Socratic Method to get me to accept the notion that I should treat centrists like they haven’t spent the past 6 months abusing people who don’t like Biden’s support for genocide has not worked because you’re trying to get me to accept something contrary to my lived experience and contrary to what that experience has taught me to be a fundamental truth: centrists do not have misgivings about supporting genocide, and are hostile to those that draw attention to this.
I don't buy your arguments. You interpret this as me not understanding them.
My dude - The thing we are disagreeing about is what I believe. You don't get to have a difference of opinion about what I believe and lecture me about what my viewpoint is when I'm telling you and directly showing you with evidence that it's not what I believe.
I realize you've built this whole thing in your mind, apparently, where I and everyone else who's downvoting you just loves the fuck out of genocide and you're one of this rare minority who realizes that killing Palestinians is wrong, and we're all just lying evil people that you have to take this heroic stand against. I don't know what to tell you about it, honestly. But it's not like we're having a debate about what happened in 1832 in Prague -- I'm telling you my view, and you're angrily assigning me a new one instead, because the one you're assigning me is easier for you to argue against. I don't know, man, I don't know any way to show you that that's wrong other than try a few different ways to walk you up to the point. You can "not buy" it if you want, but it's just gonna be a big waste of time for all concerned.
Your comment drips with condescension
Tru dat
, gaslighting
Absolutely not. You gaslit yourself into believing nonsense about your interlocutors in a way that will make it impossible for you to understand what they're saying (or, for that matter, to make any progress in convincing them of your point of view, because you have no idea what they actually think other than what you imagined in your mind for them.)
, and abuse.
Not really
We're talking about genocide.
Agree
Genocide is both evil and wrong.
Agree
Support for genocide is both evil and wrong.
Agree
There is no moral ambiguity here.
Agree
Your patronizing
Yeah probably
attempt to abuse the Socratic Method
Honestly, refusing to answer questions about your own claims because someone's trying to "abuse the Socratic method" if they ask you questions isn't a great way to expand your understanding, or to demonstrate to them or yourself that your position is solid and truthful to objective reality
I should treat centrists like they haven't spent the past 6 months abusing people who don't like Biden's support for genocide has not worked because you're trying to get me to accept something contrary to my lived experience
I'm not saying you didn't live a certain experience inside your own brain. I'm saying that that experience and judgements you lived and formed didn't correspond to what people actually said and what they believe.
It's not gaslighting if I'm literally sending you quotes and messages demonstrating that the objective reality doesn't match the picture you already formed in your mind.
experience has taught me to be a fundamental truth: centrists do not have misgivings about supporting genocide, and are hostile to those that draw attention to this.
Again: This is you telling me what "experience has taught you" inside your mind, and clinging to it in the face of objective reality being shown to you from outside.
You can assign me whatever views you want, and use them as a reason to discount whatever I say about whatever I'm talking about, if you want. You're still dead wrong about what I believe, and saying "fundamental truth" as a reason to keep assigning me these beliefs is an exercise in faith-based self deception which is leading you to be dead wrong about this.
Yes I am condescending about it. Sorry. I exhausted my patience to try to be polite about it after a while.
Well, I would suggest you find something new pretty quickly, because things are changing with Israel. And I know you don’t actually care about Israel, you just want to attack Biden.
If Biden ever stops supporting genocide, I’ll stop saying he supports genocide.
His statements are starting to change, but his actions have not. Pressure on Biden to cease his support for Netanyahu’s genocide may be starting to work. If he actually listens and stops selling weapons that he knows will be used for genocide, I will be fucking ecstatic. Not only because I won’t be expected to vote for a man who is actively supporting genocide, but because I want a president who is responsive to progressives’ concerns.
I’m the same way about Biden’s student loan forgiveness. Up until the day he announced the first attempt, I was sure he was the same Biden who championed the law that made sure people could not discharge student loans via bankruptcy. I was sure he would never change. I’m happy I was wrong. I’m happy he listened to progressives and not centrists. When it was shot down by SCOTUS, he could have given up forever and announced that he tried. He didn’t. He had a contingency plan ready to go and has persisted in forgiving what he can with the power he has. This is what I want to see.
If Biden proves responsive on this issue, FUCKING AWESOME!
I have every right to criticize Biden where I think he should improve. Everyone does.
See, pretty much 100% of this comment I agree with -- this is exactly my view. I actually had exactly the same experience where I didn't expect things like student loan forgiveness out of Biden and then was surprised - he's a rich white guy who's worked in Washington all his life; my expectations were quite low.
I’ll wait and see if anything actually happens. When Bibi calls their bluff yet again by continuing the genocide with added aid worker deaths and embassy bombings, will he face any actual consequences?
I’m guessing no. This is all theater. The status quo will be maintained at all costs.
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