Joe Biden has done more than arm Israel. He’s complicit in Gaza’s devastating famine

President Joe Biden and his administration have been accused of being complicit in enabling a famine in Gaza by failing to sufficiently act on repeated warnings from their own experts and aid agencies.

The former officials say the US also provided diplomatic cover for Israel to create the conditions for famine by blocking international efforts to bring about a ceasefire or alleviate the crisis, making the delivery of aid almost impossible.

“This is not just turning a blind eye to the man-made starvation of an entire population, it is direct complicity,” former State Department official Josh Paul, who resigned over US support for the war, told The Independent.

MisterD,

Meanwhile, Biden tried to stop arms shipments to Israel and Biden got vetoed by the Republicans in Congress

reuters.com/…/us-house-votes-force-weapons-shipme…

zerog_bandit,

Yikes. Have they released the hostages yet?

kiljoy,

They can’t Hitler 2.0 included them in his genocide of palestineans.

AgentDalePoopster,

“Do what we ask and we’ll stop murdering your children” is the exact logic that led to the invention of war crimes.

Tinidril,

The majority of Palestinian deaths came after the last ceasefire. The UN Security Council demanded another ceasefire exactly like the armchair diplomats demanded, and yet it made no difference at all. At what point do people realize that foreign policy is complex as fuck and that knee jerk solutions, however well intended, are not the real answer?

We don’t need a ceasefire, we need a peace. That requires careful application of power and influence across multiple warring cultures with a crazy web of often contradictory alegences. That’s the goal that the Biden administration has been working towards, and abandoning Israel would be a disaster for everyone.

With or without US support, Israel can destroy Gaza. Israel has twice the population of Palestine, is far better armed already, and their people are better educated and have access to food and medicine. Israel also has a right wing Prime Minister who’s entire political image is based on anti-Palestinian racism. Throw in the fact that he might face trial as soon as he leaves office, and it becomes clear he is not backing down.

The new shipments recently announced are for some time in 2026 at the earliest. They are of no assistance to Israel until then and, until that time, they are leverage.

I make no defense for Israel’s actions in this conflict, the illegal settlements, or the apartide system they benefit from. I also disagree with a whole lot about the Biden administration’s response to this conflict, and to the protests within the US. However, it’s a far more complicated situation than many understand. People should also keep in mind that foreign policy strategies often collapse if talked about publicly.

Ensign_Crab,

However, it’s a far more complicated situation than many understand. People should also keep in mind that foreign policy strategies often collapse if talked about publicly.

How utterly convenient for pro-genocide centrists.

Tinidril,

But I’m not either, as I made quite clear.

Ensign_Crab,

The whole “your feeble minds just can’t comprehend the complexity of why we have to keep supporting a genocide” argument made something clear.

Tinidril,

You have a vivid imagination, but that’s not what I said.

Ensign_Crab,

Gaslight someone else.

Tinidril,

Where did I say it was beyond anyone’s feeble comprehension? I’m just pointing out that it is complex and people are treating it like it isn’t. “Peace in the Middle East is a difficult and complex topic.” shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

Ensign_Crab,

“We shouldn’t be supporting genocide at all, fucking ever” shouldn’t be, either, but this is lemmy.

Neon,

Nuanced and well-thought-through thoughts instead of Populism? On Lemmy?

Seriously, It made me really happy to see that there are still people that actually inform themselves, sit down and think through stuff.

A rarity sadly.

Tinidril,

Trump’s gang has given populists a bad name. The only requirements for being a populist are that you believe there is a wealthy class that dominates our politics to serve their own class purposes, and you think that is a bad thing. I consider myself a left wing populist.

Krono,

[Peace is] the goal that the Biden administration has been working towards

Yeah totally, the guy who has shipped 300,000 bombs to a genocidal warlord is actually working for peace! And anyone who disagrees just doesn’t understand the complexity of the situation. /s

Tinidril, (edited )

I don’t know where you got that 300k number from, but I clearly said that I disagree with much of Biden’s response.

Saving Palestinian lives is sadly not a strategic goal of US foreign policy. This is true for Biden, his election opponents, and every US President since WWII. However, general stability in the Middle East is very much a strategic goal, and that is not well served by Israel’s recent actions. So yeah, the US is going to support it’s ally Israel while working towards peace. This is not out of altruism, it’s in service to it’s own strategic interests. Everything in foreign policy eventually comes down to competing interests and power, and that’s not just an American thing.

shikitohno,

abandoning Israel would be a disaster for everyone.

How would this be a disaster for anyone but Israel? Worst case scenario, it’s a disaster for Zionists, the US military industrial complex profitting off them, and whatever portion of Israel’s population opposes Israel’s apartheid ethno-state, and I’ve only got sympathy for the last of them. At worst, it’s an inconvenience for the US with Iran. Other than that, let Israel get rocked by sanctions and smacked around by their neighbors they’ve been antagonizing for decades with US support. Let Israelis go be refugees if necessary and there’s an actual threat of loss of life. Otherwise, whoop dee doo, cutting off Israel means they get what they’re due for. Israel is not some essential nation that the world would fall apart should it cease to exist in its current form.

Corkyskog,

Well they do have nukes… So if a bunch of crazy religious folks get backed into a corner conventionally with their neighbors it could end very badly.

shikitohno,

That sounds more like a reason that western powers should have already nipped this in the bud long ago, rather than a reason to continue to give them carte blanche to commit war crimes. They already dropped the ball on that front, so realistically, they ought to be coming up with strategies to neutralize Israel, rather than embolden it. Perhaps they could take a page from Israel’s book and carry out some strikes preemptively exercising their right to self-defense and dismantle the Israeli military and government.

Israel’s unchecked existence is a liability to everyone, but it’s not going to get any better by letting them go even longer.

Tinidril,

The US abandoning Israel would throw the whole region into turmoil. Iran and/or it’s proxies would become far more hostile and Israel would no longer be willing to even pretend to tolerate a hostile force within its own boarders. Both Gaza and the West Bank are just gone. Israel would start cutting deals with US rivals which would have global implications.

US pulling out of Israel would be the most chaos inducing event in world history.

shikitohno,

US pulling out of Israel would be the most chaos inducing event in world history.

This is pure hyperbole. The most chaos you could get from this would be from Israel lobbing a nuke before getting taken out, which they already essentially threaten as it stands.

And what US rival is Israel going to find to replace it that has both the desire and means to do so? China and Russia don’t stand to benefit from that, even if they wanted to pump billions of dollars into Israel a year. They already have influence in the region with other powers the US is hostile to, like Iran. Israel is increasingly internationally discredited, so it’s not as though they’re going to get a great diplomatic boost. They already have nuclear weapons of their own and pretty developed intelligence apparatuses. What would be the point of taking on such a massive liability?

And let’s not forget that the region is in turmoil to begin with in large part because the US keeps intervening in it, as well as supporting Israel and other shitty governments in the region that are favorable to the US in some way. Israel itself destabilizes the region.

Tinidril,

You don’t think Russia and China stand to benefit from Israeli knowledge of US arms technology? What about the massive PR win for Russia? They already use an imagined Nazi threat to justify their wars of aggression.

There are three regional powers in the Middle East. The US has Israel and Saudi Arabia, and Russia has Iran. You don’t think Russia wants to flip that math? Controlling that much oil would eliminate whatever vulnerability they have to sanctions.

Israel is hardly discredited, whatever the hell that means. Maybe in Internet culture, but not in geopolitics. Russia is doing almost exactly what Israel is on a much broader scale right now. The International community cares about as much about the Palestinians as they do about the Rohingya or the Darfuri, both of which are suffering ongoing genocides that I bet you didn’t even know about. The world should care, but it really doesn’t.

The problems in the Middle East are about a lot more than US meddling. Much of it goes back to before the US even existed. Not that the US has helped much, but it was the British Empire that setup ridiculous borders that all but guaranteed eternal conflict.

shikitohno,

Israel is only a regional power by virtue of the US propping it up, it cannot maintain that status on its own. Why on earth would either Russia or China want to take that on, when they could just do nothing and watch Israeli power plummet.

Israel is hardly discredited, whatever the hell that means

Israel has no large, international backer that is both willing and able to step up and provide cover for it like the US does, and it lacks the might through its own weight around like Russia or China have long term. Without the constant backing of the US to shield from.the consequences of its actions, Israel would become the pariah state it rightfully should be.

The International community cares about as much about the Palestinians as they do about the Rohingya or the Darfuri, both of which are suffering ongoing genocides that I bet you didn’t even know about.

And a lovely bit of whataboutism to round things out from you. Unfortunately for you, my memory is longer than a news cycle, but cute attempt at sounding like you were digging deep there.

Tinidril,

Israel is only a regional power by virtue of the US propping it up.

Where did you pick that nonsense up? Annual US aid amounts to around 15% of Israel’s military budget. That’s $3.8b compared to a GDP of $500b. It is a regional power with or without the US. US aid is in exchange for maintaining a major US military base in Israeli territory and access to Israeli intelligence. Israel spends more money on purchasing US weapons than it receives in US aid. US weapons also rely on technology designed and produced in Israel.

Why on earth would either Russia or China want to take that on, when they could just do nothing and watch Israeli power plummet.

Why on earth would Russia or China want to watch Israeli power plummet when they could use it to project power into the Middle East and access it’s resources? Why do you think the US is there?

And a lovely bit of whataboutism

It’s not Whataboutism, I was just explaining how foreign policy works. It’s clearly a topic of which you know very little. I’m not saying it’s OK that Israel commits a genocide because others do it, I’m saying that the international community doesn’t react to genocide like you or I do. They will praise, condemn, or ignore it based on their own national interests. That’s not how I think it should work, it’s how it does work.

shikitohno,

Where did you pick that nonsense up? Annual US aid amounts to around 15% of Israel’s military budget. That’s $3.8b compared to a GDP of $500b. It is a regional power with or without the US. US aid is in exchange for maintaining a major US military base in Israeli territory and access to Israeli intelligence. Israel spends more money on purchasing US weapons than it receives in US aid. US weapons also rely on technology designed and produced in Israel.

This isn’t just about Israel’s military budget. That helps, sure, but it’s pretty crucial that Israel gets shielded from the consequences of its actions by the US constantly. If Israel were to start facing sanctions or have its saber-rattling no longer backed up by the threat of US intervention, be via sanctions or interceding directly, Israel would be a much less imposing power in the region. Military support is not the only measure of US support for Israel.

Why on earth would Russia or China want to watch Israeli power plummet when they could use it to project power into the Middle East and access it’s resources? Why do you think the US is there?

They could literally do the same thing without a) having to provide Israel ongoing material support and diplomatic cover, b) risk getting dragged into conflicts that don’t benefit them by Israel, and c) alienate their existing allies in the region by backing a hostile power.

Israel provided a convenient foothold for the US half a century ago, when the surrounding Arab nations were more hostile to them. The situation has changed remarkably, and Israel is no longer unique in being willing to work with the US. Israel has, in fact, been a liability in making progress with this until relatively recently. But, sure, let’s piss off the rest of the region so we can get Waze and some Israeli clementines out of things, seems like a good trade on the balance of it.

You want to claim I know so little about foreign policy, but you quite conveniently omit the many drawbacks to supporting Israel, as well as any of its weaknesses.

LibertyLizard,

Horrific. What can we as individuals do to help alleviate this situation?

Tinidril,

The college protests actually seem to have raised the pressure on Israel, and have started to spread in Europe. I think that joining with that effort is probably the most impact that average citizens can have. That and donate to charitable organizations bringing aid to Gaza, even if that aid is currently being blocked.

Ensign_Crab,

The college protests actually seem to have raised the pressure on Israel

How have they changed the way Netanyahu pursues genocide?

Inui,

They’ve gotten several schools to reduce or sever their relationships to companies that directly fund and supply Israel. Its not going to have an immediate impact like withholding a cheque, but it does affect them.

Ensign_Crab,

That’s a great example of pressure being raised on schools. But OP said there was pressure on Israel, for which I see no evidence.

Tinidril,

Just the fact that he felt the need to address them himself on TV is evidence that he feels pressure. I never claimed they were changing the course of history, but if you have better suggestions then please make them.

Ensign_Crab,

but if you have better suggestions then please make them

I keep making it: Biden should stop sending Netanyahu weapons for genocide.

Tinidril,

The question was what can we as individuals do? Anyways, US aid generally accounts for around ,15% of Israel’s defense budget, and there are plenty of other countries from which to buy bombs.

Ensign_Crab,

The question was what can we as individuals do?

Gloat harder that the only thing we can do is vote for one of two pro-genocide candidates.

Anyways, US aid generally accounts for around ,15% of Israel’s defense budget, and there are plenty of other countries from which to buy bombs.

So let Netanyahu buy from them. And where possible, sanction those who sell to Netanyahu. Why are we being complicit? And “it’s complicated, so shut up” isn’t an answer.

Tinidril,

it’s complicated, so shut up" isn’t an answer.

Funny how that’s almost the exact opposite of encouraging people to get involved with protests, which was my actual answer to that question.

Corkyskog,

The boycott movement on tiktok and other social media seem to be doing something as well. Considering McDonald’s is starting to issue statements bemoaning the boycott and how they have never supported Israel, or something like that.

Ensign_Crab,

The boycott movement on tiktok and other social media seem to be doing something as well.

Yeah, getting tiktok banned.

logicbomb,

Because this is politics, and the US has only two possible options in November, it is good to remember that Trump told Israel that it should “end the problem” of Gaza.

Even if you don’t like Biden on this issue, it is imperative to vote for him in November. A non-vote for Biden is almost as bad as a vote for Trump.

I can guarantee MAGA will have no qualms voting for Trump despite his genocidal tendencies. If you don’t vote for Biden and Trump wins, you will be responsible for a lot of suffering.

TheBananaKing,

Why isn’t Biden responsible?

ickplant,
@ickplant@lemmy.world avatar

They literally didn’t say that, but ok.

qprimed,

he is. and I am completely fine with his impeachment and removal from office…

…after trump is locked out.

slurpinderpin,

Kushner has already drawn up plans for the condos they’re gonna build in Gaza after they bulldoze it. People are so fucking stupid if this is the reason they don’t vote for Biden. It will literally get much worse

Ensign_Crab,

Even if you don’t like Biden on this issue

No one should like Biden on this issue.

bashbeerbash,

Don’t worry, when Trump wins we won’t have to worry about Gaza or palestinians in general!

Ensign_Crab,

Stop accusing anyone who criticizes your pro-genocide candidate of supporting your pro-genocide second choice.

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

I wonder what Bobby Brainworm’s view on Palestine genocide is.

Ensign_Crab,

I don’t care what a deliberate spoiler candidate claims his positions are.

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

So what do you want?

Ensign_Crab,

I want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. Why is that so difficult to understand?

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

Because that was the first time I’ve seen you say that.

I’m not much of a mind reader.

Ensign_Crab,

Why do so many people immediately assume that criticizing Biden means support for another candidate?

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

I was curious about Bobby’s views because he is in third place right now, it’s a valid question.

Xanis,

Because the Right has dug in for years, chosen a target, and collectively did their best to cause as much damage as possible to everything they can. Even if it hurts them.

That’s why people like me assume the worst. It feels the same. Aside from that, a lot of people who are criticizing Biden are clearly rabble-rousers, another large percentage won’t vote for Biden and on the same branch will vote for Trump. All of these people are loud. Thing is, those of us with good intentions do agree that Biden has made the wrong choice so far, even if this last shipment is being forced by the Republican-controlled House, so I hope you all realize this one isn’t on him at least. The Gaza situation is shit. We know. It’s just…we also understand that Trump will do worse. Yet every damned time we try and bring this up in much the same way you’re tired of feeling as if standing up in protest of the Genocide makes you a target, we also feel the same.

Many of us also see the pattern. Of division. The sowing of seeds to split us apart. It happens every time and we keep paying for it.

Man, I just want us to come together. Get Biden into Office and keep up the momentum and push. Stand firm as one for change. For Gaza and, for once, for ourselves. Trump will never listen. Maybe Biden won’t either. At least with him though we’ll have four years to try. All we have to do for the first time in so damn long is stand united.

Ensign_Crab,

Thing is, those of us with good intentions do agree that Biden has made the wrong choice so far, even if this last shipment is being forced by the Republican-controlled House, so I hope you all realize this one isn’t on him at least.

Source on this last shipment being forced on him.

Xanis,

There are multiple sources. Here’s one:

reuters.com/…/us-house-votes-force-weapons-shipme…

Ensign_Crab,

So it passed the house, it hasn’t passed the senate, and Biden can just veto it.

I get that you genocide lovers just want him to shovel as many weapons as possible at Israel until they’ve killed all the Palestinians, but let’s not pretend for an instant that this ties Biden’s hands in any way at all.

Xanis,

Ah now see, this is what I’m talking about. Rather than look at the story, maybe double check, recognize that there are levels and nuances that while don’t excuse anything, they at least provide some reason - instead you’re hiding behind Gaza again.

“Genocide lovers”? Really. I’ve said that we recognize, and I know I speak for all of us who are reasonable, how absolute shit that situation is and we know Biden has not been great at handling it. We are condemning the situation and his reactions up to this point because he could be doing more.

We just also see that we can condemn him and still vote him in because the alternative is an event that is likely to make that situation even worse, while also causing several other major fires to break out. This is the reality. We are stuck between a shitty deal and a genocide and we don’t need to draw ultimatums. This is why I remind people and push for the other option:

Vote for Biden into a second term AND we all come together for stronger actions to stop the travesty in Gaza from continuing. Biden is already showing he’ll roll over. Not a lot yet, he IS showing it. More importantly, even when the elections weren’t around the corner he was shown to bend to public outcry. What we shouldn’t be doing is dividing ourselves. It isn’t Gaza or Trump as separate problems. Invariably it must be Gaza and Trump. They are both incredibly massive problems and we collectively have the capacity to fight on both fronts. All I’m asking is we do that. I’m tired, man, and angry, because I feel sometimes like I’m yelling for positive change into the void

With Biden we’ll have four years to keep up the fight across all fronts. With Trump? I just feel we’ll be silenced, and that will help no one.

The problem is I truly feel like I’m doing this alone sometimes.

Ensign_Crab,

Ah now see, this is what I’m talking about. Rather than look at the story, maybe double check, recognize that there are levels and nuances that while don’t excuse anything, they at least provide some reason

I did. You’re lying and pretending that Biden’s hands are tied, and I explained how they very much are not.

“Genocide lovers”? Really.

Just shut up. Fuck

You and people just like you, Genocide lovers all. I no longer care. Every single one and I’m calling you out.

If you want to ignore my words and call me a Trump supporter, which you have straight up done in this thread, I don’t see why anything you say should carry any weight at all either.

Your support for genocide is ALL you are.

Xanis,

If you don’t want to be called out, stop arguing in bad faith and begin listening more. I’m not going to back down. Gaza is shit and Trump and his allies have been on record more than once promising to also do terrible things. We either stop Trump and continue working, or let him back into Office and have more to worry about than Ukraine and Gaza.

I tried letting my anger out. I tried being reasonable. I tried emotionally connecting and pleading. The reality is extremely simple:

The Genocide should be stopped.

Trump and the GOP should be stopped.

Not voting for Biden is helping Trump and the GOP.

There is no making assumptions here. There is no stretching the truth. Either you recognize the importance of this stance you are determined to hold, which is the Gaza Genocide to the absolute obliteration of all reason, even that which agrees with you, or by opposing Biden’s reelection, BECAUSE of the situation we are in, you support Trump.

I’ve already agreed with you that the Genocide is terrible. I’ve said Biden needs to do more. I am also saying that we cannot support the ending of the situation in Gaza while also ignoring the situation in within the U.S. This election will affect the world, most of our elections do. The big difference this time is the World remembers how it was when Trump was President last time and they do not want him to be in that position again. Just like they also don’t support the Genocide in Gaza.

It’s both. Not one. I have laid it out. So get angry all you want, I don’t give a shit. My stance is clear:

The Genocide needs to end. Biden must do more to end any support or the situation completely. Trump and the GOP must not gain the Office of the President of the United States.

Pretty simple if you peel off your angry eyebrows for a minute. Or do you want to continue calling me names?

Ensign_Crab, (edited )

Not voting for Biden is helping Trump and the GOP.

There is no making assumptions here.

Yes, there fucking is. I’m voting for Biden. You assumed I support Trump because and only because I don’t love genocide like you and every other centrist always has and always will.

I’ve already agreed with you that the Genocide is terrible.

And I agreed with you that Trump is worse than Biden. You responded by calling me a trumpist.

The Genocide needs to end. Biden must do more to end any support or the situation completely. Trump and the GOP must not gain the Office of the President of the United States.

This is my position, which I openly stated, and you replied by calling me a fucking trumpist. If you don’t like it when people ignore your words and make up abhorrent positions to ascribe to you, good. Tell your genocide supporting buddies what that’s like.

Xanis,

Still calling us “genocide lovers”, even after my explanation. Bah. No good faith. Just rudeness and labels. Whatever, man. If you want to act like a MAGA Cult member by attempting to incite anger through the usage of extreme abrasiveness and offensive labeling do your thing. We’re on the same page, even if you are a jackass about it.

Ensign_Crab,

I wouldn’t be doing it if you hadn’t responded to me agreeing with you by calling me a trumpist.

I was responding in kind. I was doing exactly what you did, directly quoting you in one case.

You don’t like it very much, do you?

Xanis,

Stop hiding behind this single reasoning while failing to explain why Trump would be better. Or if you’re clever: Wouldn’t be worse.

Gaza is in a horrible situation. Biden buys us time. Trump shortens it significantly. I guarantee it. So decide: Biden, who on this issue is far from ideal, or Trump whose allies all but scream for the deaths of millions.

It’s reality and the world is holding its breath and expecting the worst.

Ensign_Crab,

Stop hiding behind this single reasoning while failing to explain why Trump would be better.

He isn’t better.

Or if you’re clever: Wouldn’t be worse.

He would be worse.

That doesn’t mean Biden’s position is acceptable.

Xanis,

I’m tired, man. People spitting on others during a pandemic, refusing to wear masks spouting bullshit. Trump doing literally nothing except sending us backward leading into it. Anti-vaccine movements pushed by the Right and accepted by idiots who can’t critically think to literally save their lives. Biden actually making some headway and not a single individual who hides behind the Gaza conflict can list three things Biden has done well. A god damn coup attempt at our Nation’s capital. An entire world begging us to not allow Trump into power.

Just shut up. Fuck

You and people just like you, Trump supporters all. I no longer care. Every single one and I’m calling you out. Gaza is shit. A travesty. It sucks balls. But come the fuck on. Use your brain. Open your eyes. We have a chance for a better tomorrow with Biden. The GOP have been on the actual damn record this past month alone condemning the LGBTQ+ community, calling the fucking nuking of Japan a good choice, and trying to convince everyone that removing a woman’s autonomy is a righteous act.

This is what YOU support. Sleep well because if Trump wins I know your ass will be nowhere to be found.

Ensign_Crab,

I support Biden changing his policy regarding genocide. You’re so married to the idea of genocide that you think this is support for your second favorite pro-genocide candidate.

Mastengwe,

Ask this kid to provide the name of someone that stands a chance to beat Trump and watch him squirm.

Neon,

We are so gonna see a pickachuface moment, aren’t we?

I am so sorry for you all over there.

But hey, at least you will have the privilege of Schadenfreude! Gotta stay positive, am i rite?

Strawberry,

Seems likely that if Biden wins he’ll drop all pretenses of giving a shit about Palestinians at all, since he won’t have another election to worry about

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