As some have touched on, this also means that the MAGA crowd will believe that by extension they are also entitled to immunity and will act accordingly.
I can’t believe people in here openly advocating to assassinate supreme court justices. You all need to step away for a bit, take a few breaths and go talk to some real people.
Remember that this whole time biden could have packed the SCOTUS and turned the Republican majority into a Democrat majority. Nothing in our Constitution says only 9 supreme court appointees. He’s just not willing to do it because he is a liberal and doesn’t want to use his power to crush the Republicans like they need to be.
If it was trump he would have (and did) wielded the knife of political power with no hesitation but the moment Democrats have the knife they hold it with fear the Republicans would accuse them of being partisan.
Capitalism loves unfettered, infinite growth. This is such a small minded, short term mindset. I much prefer a “controlled and sustainable” growth approach. Liberals are trying to build an equitable country for all of us and our progeny, the other side is trying to cash out before it all comes crashing down. It’s disgusting. But history repeats itself, because humans are the common factor and humans, broadly, suck.
You can’t say Liberals are trying to build an equitable country when they clearly are not, while trying to pin the blame on “humans”.
Humans are not the problem, capitalism is the problem. The capitalist system is working exactly as intended - putting all the wealth in the hands of a few men while making slaves of the rest of us.
You cannot build an equitable or sustainable society in the capitalist system. It will always lead to fascism and ruin.
The capitalism that the Liberals love is the same capitalism that the Republicans love. It doesn’t make much difference if you stick a rainbow flag on it. There is no nice version of capitalism. There’s nothing “controlled or sustainable” about neoliberal capitalism.
Please stop trying to blame humans for being forced with violence, homelessness, and starvation to try to survive in a cannibalistic system that forces people to become greedy. I’m tired of hearing the Malthusian untrue “humans suck” meme. Humans learn from the conditions they are raised in. There is nothing inherently greedy in humans. That is purely conditioning. If we lived in a society that rewarded cooperation and didn’t threaten us with homelessness and death for not being obedient slaves we would be cooperative and have the possibility to work toward building a sustainable society.
In the case they reverse it then we are back at square 1 except we had a more progressive supreme court for a bit. I don’t see how this makes our situation worse. I guess we should also give up and never bother with executive orders since they can just be undone when the Republicans get in
I hate this reasoning. They would do it anyway! They attempted a coup. You really think they would stop because there’s some gentleman’s agreement not to add more?
Trump and the GOP have always used these gentleman’s agreements against the Democrats when they are in power and ignored them when it was their time. Obama did the same shit when he was in office not forcing through the supreme court appointee.
And it is the President’s responsibility to nominate justices, so if the majority party just nullifies every single nominee until they can secure the presidency, we shouldn’t pretend that they aren’t obstructing the operation of government to try to seize power.
All of this “but the government actually works this one specific way” argument isn’t much of a real argument when the issue is that bad faith actors are exploiting and weaponizing the way our government works in order to destroy it and to turn it into a dictatorship.
Dems had majority in the house and senate. If they managed to get all dems to agree (which is not guaranteed) in the Senate on the appointee) then in all likelihood they would be able to increase the size with congress
They’d have to have a supermajority in both, which is an impossibility with current gerrymandering. Really, I think the Judicial branch needs a serious overhaul from the bottom up. 9 unelected lifetime appointees getting to decide what the law means for over 300 million people is ridiculously easy to exploit, which we’re seeing now.
They would have to do the nuclear option and crush the filibuster. I agree with you though on the lifetime appointees thing. They really should have terms and elections
It’s possible but there was at least an opportunity to try putting forth some moderate judges which would have a chance to pull over center Republicans or Sinema/Manchin. Or at least force the issue. I believe they also had a chance after Roe V Wade before election time in November when the political will was more there to defend the abortion issue by getting a supreme court more favorable on the issue
He’s just not willing to do it because he is a liberal and doesn’t want to use his power to crush the Republicans like they need to be.
This is ABSOLUTELY wrong and /u/exanime pointed that out to you already. Manchin and Sinema said they would have blocked it. It would not have succeeded because they sold their souls NOT because biden is tOo LiBeRaL. Jesus christ.
The Biden admin has fought tooth and nail for things that are actually fucking possible and the average american has benefited. We all want to expand this illegitimate court but you simply CANNOT pin the blame on Biden’s chest.
What about Obama?? Where was the packing of the court then? You know, that time in which he could have forced RBG out and chosen a pick but instead mitch pushed for the AmErIcAn PeOpLe to get the choice (and then did the exact opposite when it was trumps turn). Too much of a lib as well?
So much lib apologism holy shit. First of all I responded to the users comment. They are correct about that but just because the two said they would oppose doesn’t mean biden did his best.
The biden admin fought tooth and nail? What did he fight for? You think I’m supposed to accept the one thing he fought for, student debt cancellation as some sort of pity policy? Trump came out all the time pushing the window to the right, fighting for his policy. You literally could not make him shut up about the border while Biden hardly ever used his platform meaningfully to bully others in the government into doing what needed to be done to build political power for the democrats. If you can’t see that then I think you might not understand the full extent of the power of the presidency. Where’s decriminalizing weed? When did he push for the minimum wage? Those were like his main campaign promises. The worst part is especially with weed he could have just descheduled it but instead he just lowered it by a single schedule to raise his approval rating.
I don’t get why you have such a hard-on for biden. He did some good things but that doesn’t excuse his negligent misuse of his political appointment at a time when our democracy depends on it.
With regards to Obama, do I have to complain about every politician I don’t like whenever I criticize any other politician? Obama sucked at this too and this is in many ways more his fault than Biden’s but do I really need to bring him up every time I go to criticize other democrats?!
Not “may have,” did. They did legalize any action taken by the person holding the office of the presidency. Trump tried to have his VP killed for fucks sake. That actually happened. It’s no longer the case that everyone in America is equal under the law. The president is now legally allowed to do anything that would get the rest of us thrown in jail. This society isn’t even pretending to be equal anymore. We’re finished.
I’m so fucking tired, and I feel like that was one of the main points of this. Dems are too exhausted and afraid of taking big actions to do anything about this, so like I said, we’re finished.
I see the /s but she says she will file articles of impeachment against one member of the Supreme Court once Congress is back. And it’s about time. They should all be bogging everything down with this until the election because it’s that important.
Articles that will be immediately shot down by the Republican house majority and probably a few spoilers as well because they need to make it more obvious they want a real dictatorship.
Guaranteed they do, but every member of the house that cares about democracy should bring their own. The Congress should be nothing but this until the election. Let the Republicans go on record everyday until the election denouncing democracy.
AoC falls out a window in the next 4 years…I’m pretty sure there’s going to be a lot of high profile Democrats having accidents as soon as Trump gets back in the chair.
They do, and it will only be “official” when a Republican does it. Once they control the courts, it’s game over. Nothing short of unstacking the court will avert a fascist dictatorship.
I do find it amusing that SCOTUS made a ruling that legalizes having them assassinated as an “official act” though. After all, being in contact with intelligence agencies is definitely an official act as is writing pardons, so he can always pardon the assassin(s) afterward.
They remanded to the lower courts to determine that. But like it does have some implication. They definitely did not say everything the president does is an official action.
So doesn’t that mean the US didn’t really ever have separation of powers? Sounds like the door to fascism wasn’t locked and we just used the honour system.
Yeah, that’s unfortunately right. So much of the American system is based on norms and ideals that we trusted our leaders to respect. The Supreme Court has seized their authority, and since they refuse to recognize Congressional oversight (the Chief Justice has regularly refused to appear before Congress), there’s very little we can do.
Exactly, and that’s how this court is so tricky. By not fully defining what an “official act” is, they’re claiming the power to decide later. Because that very issue will inevitably reach them after some batshit district court ruling. So they ultimately get to decide regardless, and this court regularly makes up ahistorical and completely absurd justifications that don’t pass the smell test, so we’re doomed.
As far as I can tell, yup. And by official, it basically means anything done while in office, so he could theoretically walk out onto Pennsylvania Avenue, spray a group of protestors holding signs with an M16, and walk back inside with no legal repercussions.
I’m fucken angry. We need to get together. We need to protest. We need to do it relentlessly on their doorsteps until the country is in distinction from us not showing up to work. Its either that or fascism wins.
It’s no longer the case that everyone in America is equal under the law.
Is there a “never has been” version of the “always has been” meme?
Them taking the mask off and being open about it is serious and dangerous don’t get me wrong, but lets not pretend the law is, or ever was written nor administered equally - filthy rich and powerful white men in particular have always put themselves above it.
Nah unfortunately you’re 100% right, it has never actually been equal in practice. But at least we all could delude ourselves into thinking that we were striving towards that principle. It’s all laid bare now, and it’s fucking ugly. The fact that they’ve been actively working towards these very goals with laser focus, for decades, makes it all the worse.
We’ve got so much farther left to go. Go check out how Argentina is handling its Trump-style President, and even they’ve got a ways to go. Check out the Philippines under Duterte and Marcos. They’re getting closer, but still plunging.
Now Haiti? Libya? Ukraine? Sudan? That’s your rock bottom.
I’m honestly not sure why he doesn’t just have all of SCOTUS murdered, and if anyone in Congress moves against him, have then eliminated as well. Do Trump in, whole he’s at it. Full on blood bath.
Couldn’t they just vote that it wasn’t an “official” presidential action and try him for murder? With this new ruling and the absurdly vague definitions of what is or isn’t official it seems like absolutely anything is legal but only if the SCOTUS say it is. So right now it certainly seems like if you wear red you could do anything you want and if you wear blue you are screwed six ways to Sunday. I may be misunderstanding this whole thing tho.
I don’t know, but I do know that Biden has to win now, and we need a majority of Democrats in Congress. Something has to be done to balance the damage this Supreme Court is doing, or we will get a dictator soon. And it might be a Democrat dictator; it’s more likely to be a Republican, but the Presidency is quickly gaining dictator-like powers.
I don’t know, but I do know that Biden has to win now, and we need a majority of Democrats in Congress. Something has to be done to balance the damage this Supreme Court is doing, or we will get a dictator soon. And it might be a Democrat dictator; it’s more likely to be a Republican, but the Presidency is quickly gaining dictator-like powers.
This is literally explicitly legalized fascism and its the law of the land right now. Even if Biden wins he needs to do something to stop this before he leaves office or the US will forever be exactly as fascist as the President decides he wants to be. It’s here now.
There’s not much he can do short of committing a crime himself. Democrats don’t have control of the House, so there no way to increase the size of SCOTUS. They were smart in ruling bribery is legal before granting immunity, or Biden would have been able to officially order the DOJ to investigate SCOTUS for corruption.
His hands are tied unless he wants to get blood on them.
The ruling just absolves him from criminal activity. It doesn’t give him complete power to increase the size of SCOTUS or retire Justices. He’d have to order a hit on a Justice to leverage that ruling, and that is an act of an insane person.
Can they, though? I’m sure there’s some 200 year old policy about having all ballots cast into the straw hat behind the vending machine on a Thursday afternoon between 3 and 5, in order to count.
It changed size six times before settling on nine Justices in 1869. Each time it was determined by a congressional vote. It’s not up to POTUS, it’s up to Congress.
I’m not the one being slow. SCOTUS had 8 people while McConnell held up Garland.
Officially SCOTUS was and is nine people. But if the wheels of government turn slow enough, SCOTUS continues to do its job with whoever has made it through the process.
Officially 9, it functioned with 8. No one is credibly saying all those decisions must be thrown out or that SCOTUS cannot function during a shortage.
If that shortage was 4, people would be vocal. But legally, it would still be functional.
I not talking about changing the official number. I never did in this thread until you did.
The president thought that people shouldn’t eat chocolate ice cream. It’s anti-american.
And “for the good of the country” anyone who eats chocolate ice cream has to be isolated from the rest of society.
That’s not an official act. It’s not really on the periphery of official acts.
But because definitionally, anything that, at the president’s sole discretion, is “in the best interest of the United States” is now argued as an official act.
Biden likes vanilla ice cream.
But he isn’t going to detain you for unamerican activities if you prefer chocolate ice cream.
It is not giving POTUS any additional authority. It grants POTUS immunity from criminal prosecution of a crime related to an official act.
Biden could personally slap the ice cream cone out of your hand and get away with it, if a court ruled it to be an official act. No one else is immune from crime committed on his behalf.
This was tailored to Trump’s insurrection charges. If SCOTUS granted POTUS more executive privilege, Biden would just overrule SCOTUS and exempt felons from presidential candidacy.
Is that an act of an insane person? It’s apparently legal, now. Do you broadly think that using violence against tyranny is insane? Our founders committed their lives and fortunes to the violent overthrow of tyranny. It would be much easier, sitting in the oval office, with legal authority granted to him by the very people he would be targeting, to authorize the extrajudicial execution of a few traitors. Do you think that extrajudicial execution is insane? Then you’ll have to admit that most presidents in the last few decades were insane, especially Obama. Is it only insane when the target is white people in power, rather than brown-skinned people overseas?
I’m not commenting, at this time, on whether it would be moral, or wise, but insane? I can’t see how.
I think it would set a very low bar for all subsequent Presidents if Biden used the new power to assassinate members of SCOTUS or Congress. The repercussions would be horrific.
I get what you’re saying, here. That’s why I specifically disclaimed making any judgement about whether it would be moral, or wise. But consider the other side of that same coin: the court did this specifically to overthrow democracy and allow Trump, or any other president who will carry out Project-2025 to use this power to maintain an effective dictatorship. There’s no other explanation for this ruling. Would using this absurd power once, now, to restore a court that is loyal to the Constitution and People of America, be worse than letting Trump get in, assassinate any and all opposition, and end democracy? Could we trust it to end there? Would Biden install justices that would immediately reverse the ruling and bring things back to normal, or just install his own loyalists? I dunno, it’s complicated.
Ultimately, it’s also all just theoretical, anyhow. I find it almost inconceivable that Biden would do this.
If being in contact with the DOJ and VP is “official duties” and thus immune to prosecution regardless of the content of the contact, then being in contact with the CIA and asking them to “retire” some justices should be as well under more or less exactly the same line of reasoning.
He can pack the supreme court. Then limit it to something tangible.
Like first, say that 2 senators per state is silly and it needs to be based on population like the house if reps. Then say that we need a supreme court justice from all 50 states + D.C. or some shit.
Boom.
Then term limits, age limits… Ranked choice, strict laws in gerrymandering…
There are so many misinformed people on this ruling. It doesn’t give the President more executive authority, like a king. It lets him commit crime without personal responsibility if it’s an official act.
Yes, it’s insane and deplorable, but it doesn’t mean Biden can do anything he wants.
If it did, he could just outlaw felons from becoming President. SCOTUS doesn’t want that.
It really doesn’t change much. Instead of just ignoring what presidents do that might be criminal, it’s explicitly immune.
Also this ruling doesn’t grant further immunity to others. The president can order seal team 6 to kill someone, but they’d still face charges if it wasn’t plausibly a legitimate target.
Good point, and well made. The immunity is explicitly for POTUS. If those carrying out the act are aware they are committing a crime they could be charged accordingly.
It unfortunately may change a lot for Trump, depending on what judges rule to be “official acts” of his Presidency. Cannon may use this to throw out the documents case.
Cannon may use this to throw out the documents case.
How? The documents case is about stuff he did after he left office. Things he does after he is no longer President definitionally cannot be official acts of his Presidency.
There is no duration limit to the immunity ruling. If she deems the ownership of documents an official act, she could rule that immunity covers all acts related to the documents until their return.
I don’t understand what you mean. Even if he believed he had the right to retain the documents, he wasn’t willfully improperly keeping the documents or obstructing their retrieval until after he was out of office - you’d basically just have to not charge him regarding any documents he handed over the first time, because after the first time handing over documents he definitely knew better and definitely wasn’t in office.
Oh, I agree that it should be considered a crime. I’m just suggesting a way Cannon may leverage this in Trumps favor.
Since there’s no requirement that the President needs to be actively in office for immunity, if she ruled that his ownership of the documents was an “official act,” then any crime he may have committed involving the documents could be considered in service of said act.
If it did, he could just outlaw felons from becoming President. SCOTUS doesn’t want that.
“I have ordered the military to detain Donald Trump in a Federal max security prison and destroy all ballots marked with his name on election day. This is not a change in the laws of our great nation, this is just an act that I am ordering to be performed in my official capacity as POTUS. God bless America.”
lmao, I mean, I don’t think it has any real chance of happening. But what stops it is Biden being Biden. If it were, say, a fascist in the Oval Office, the only question would be “Who do I ask to do this dirty work?”
To be fair. He just has to kill off the maga leadership. MAGAs are weak-minded followers, they will throw their impotent tantrums, then get distracted. The non-magas in the regressive party (gop) will cower then do their usual thing, hell most of them will instantly turn on maga when it has no teeth anymore. When he stops there, and normal Regressives don’t get persecuted or attacked, and the US starts getting better, they will all carry on…and McConnel, who will still somehow be alive, will say it was all his idea.
Blood on his hands from BLM protesters, Palestinians, trans people, Ukrainians who could use the support more than Israel, most Americans who don’t have enough to live with life threatening illnesses, Mexicans at the border, ignoring COVID…
Fuck the Court. It doesn’t care about America. The penalty for teason is…?
If you or I did anything close to what Trump and the Courts did and do on a daily basis we’d be arrested in a high security prison. Jan 6th had next to no punishment for any of the leaders.
That’s the funny thing. He cant commit crimes anymore. He’s immune from the law. All he needs to do is order the military to destroy the corruption in the Supreme Court using the legal doctrine known as bullets in the brainpan. Poof, problem solved. You don’t even have to kill people, just a few fascists.
Frankly? He needs to get on with that malicious compliance to graphically - and yes, in some cases violently - demonstrate why this is a terrible fucking idea. I’m genuinely not looking forward to it, but at the same time I do think it’s become absolutely necessary.
in all honesty, that’s what you Americans need to do. the days of peaceful protests and marching are behind you, you missed that boat a while ago. now a ship named “Revolution” has just pulled into dock and if you’re not on that boat then there’s no more boats coming.
Stop using the excuse of “but I need to work, I have to pay rent, I have to pay bills” because in 4 months time you might not have a job to pay those bills or rent. hell depending on if you’re a woman, LGBTQ+, liberal, black, an immigrant, etc, etc, etc you might have none of the above.
The American people and the country as a whole are literally, currently, right now in real time dying by a thousand cuts. you’re being slowly and methodically murdered with precision and too many of you don’t realize you’re dying. Time to demand heads on pikes and if they aren’t handed to you, well you need to go out and get them.
One way or another people are going to die. I mean I’m not going to sugar coat this, people will die.
So the question is would you rather die laying on your back doing nothing or would you rather die saving whats left of your nation and fighting for your fellow American?
Easier said than done. How could this bloody revolution ever come out in the people’s favor when the US government controls the most powerful military in the world? I want to know how everyone spouting off about taking power back by force realistically thinks it will play out.
It was already effectively legal, presidents have been ordering people killed for how long now? And often not even in wartime scenarios. Just cause they wanted them removed.
I once made up an idea for an action thriller, called “President Psycho”, where a serial killer gets elected as the president, and immediately legalizes murder involving brutal torture for himself and his friends, if committed to the “right target”. God my ideas are becoming reality before even realizing them, and the worst is that I had an idea for an edgy magical girl metroidvania that set in a dystopian world which has been completely overthrown by fascists, all while I just started to take more seriously a much more simpler and smaller game idea (Arkanoid clone that is basically a hacking minigame but bigger).
You know in the game Secret Hitler when the board has sufficiently advanced into fascism that it becomes strategic for the liberals to vote fascism and unlock a bullet? Honestly makes me think of that.
Not saying this is what needs to happen. I honestly don’t know how americans can do to get out of their quagmire.
In my experience, the liberals lose games like that 9 times out of 10. Either they kill a liberal and doom themselves, or they kill a fascist and then lose the game anyways because the deck is stacked.
What this would actually look like in effect would be if Biden had Trump assassinated by their own rules, either Biden would get impeached by the republicans + a few breakoff dems, or it would start a precedent of political assassinations in the U.S., which would end with a lot of blood.
Either way, it will be a disaster. I don’t want to be a doomer, but I don’t see a way to salvage this shit show.
That’s not doomer, that’s being a realist. Either Biden becomes a dictator and risks MAGA civil war, or Trump becomes a dictator and risks a rebellion. Those are the 2 choices.
weird that the constitution says nothing about “immunity” but the courts keep creating various forms of it. Its almost like we explicitly need an amendment that says courts are not allowed to declare things “immune” from the law.
It’s crazy because so much of the constitution is about ensuring no one is above the law, because they were trying to get away from a monarchy. Somehow this SC either can’t read or understand the constitution though because here we are.
Oh, they can read, they know exactly what they are doing. The Republic has had enemies within from the start, and now they control the most powerful branch of government.
weird that the constitution says nothing about “immunity” but the courts keep creating various forms of it.
Also weird that it explicitly prohibits warrantless search and seizure of personal property and documents as well as due process, but, the courts have allowed personal property to be stolen via civil asset forfeiture (somehow, it’s considered legal to accuse non-sentient objects of crimes, for which there is little to no recourse because they have no consciousness) and >=90% of the country which is within 100miles of a border (international airports are considered borders) are vulnerable to detention without charge by the Border Patrol.
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