So, speaking from a purely pragmatic perspective, voting for Biden is better than other US electoral choices for the purpose of trying to help Palestinians.
I understand your reticence and moral indignation, I largely feel the same.
But the biggest reason Trump won in 2016 is because voters were not particularly enthused with their choices, and a great many decided not voting at all (or voting for Trump as a protest against the establishment) was preferable to voting for HRC.
I have to imagine that we both believe that Trump is worse than Biden when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Given that we’re already in election year, it’s down to Biden and Trump. One of them is going to be president come January next year.
Taking all that together, if we want things to get better for Palestine, we should vote for Biden because the alternatives are much worse.
Granted there is a lot you can do outside of elections to help, and I wouldn’t recommend ignoring those. But given that voting for the US president takes a few hours out of one day every four years, it’s not a good idea to ignore that either.
I hope this helps you understand those of us who don’t really like Biden but will vote for him regardless.
Do you understand why you are being demonized though? You’re making a choice that is purely symbolic just so you feel better, but real and vulnerable people across the country have to deal with the fallout.
You want to make a difference? Great! There’s a lot of ways to do that. Campaign and fundraise at the local and state level. Push for election reform, ranked choice voting, end to gerrymandering, term limits, electoral college reform, curtail lobbying… any number of things, and push for them more often than once every four years. Voting third party in a presidential election does NOT help.
If you want my respect, acknowledge the reality of the situation and vote for the best option (or the least bad option) among the viable candidates and then work for change within the system. It sucks that we are in this situation, but make a choice grounded in the real world, not a fake ideal world.
You’re making a choice that is purely symbolic just so you feel better
If voting third-party were purely symbolic, there wouldn’t be this many people on Lemmy trying to persuade us to not do it.
I think Biden does want our vote. And we’re telling him that if he wants our vote, he has to stop the genocide. That’s how we can use our vote to influence the government. That’s how democracy is supposed to work.
but real and vulnerable people across the country have to deal with the fallout
There are real and vulnerable people dying in Gaza right now because of what Biden is doing.
Is that supposed to persuade me to vote for Biden? “But Trump will do genocide too.”
Yeah, and that’s why I’m not supporting Trump either.
I am a single issue voter, and that issue is genocide. And frankly, I’m disappointed that more people aren’t single issue voters when it comes to genocide.
Here’s a puzzle for you. A group of three men go to a hotel, and they each pay $10 for a room, for a total of $30. Afterwards, the manager remembers that there’s a deal where you can get 3 rooms for $25, so he gives $5 to the bellboy and tells the bellboy to return it to the men. But the bellboy returns just $1 to each of the men, and pockets the remaining $2.
So the men each paid $9, for a total of $27. The bellboy pocketed $2. Where did the other dollar go?
And the answer is that “Where did the other dollar go?” is a nonsensical question when you understand the situation correctly. But a lot of people who first hear it don’t understand the situation correctly.
Likewise, “You’re helping Trump by voting third-party” is a nonsensical when you understand the situation correctly, but many people don’t at first understand the situation correctly.
Are you sure we don’t understand it correctly? Trump won in 2016 in part due to the righteous indignation of people that refused to vote for Clinton. Third party spoiler candidates are not a new phenomenon.
Most probably wouldn’t have voted at all but that doesn’t change the math. In a US presidential election, voting third party and not voting at all are equivalent in every practical sense.
Right. So, part of the problem with “Voting third-party means supporting Trump” is that it presumes I would have otherwise voted for Biden.
And I wouldn’t have. Because he’s committing genocide.
Also, when third-party candidates start to get traction, they can pull votes away from Trump as well as Biden.
And if enough people vote third-party, we can start to defeat both Trump and Biden. Even small amounts of support for third-party candidates can lead to a third-party winning seats in congress if that support is concentrated in particular districts, like college towns. And in an evenly divided congress, a few seats can control the balance of power and have a big impact.
In our case, Biden and Trump are both Hitler because they’re both supporting a genocide. The crowd in that photo are a mix of Democrats and Republicans, and that guy is the people saying “I won’t support either of you”.
They aren’t both Hitler though. One is unquestionably worse than the other even if you only look at that single issue. One of them WILL be the next president whether you like it or not. You can have a say in who that will be, or you can go with righteous indignation and let the worse option win by default.
It absolutely is righteous indignation. You aren’t in the same situation as that guy and you aren’t being brave. Palestinians in Gaza will not be thanking you if Trump becomes president.
I’m not in the same situation as that guy. I am not claiming to be brave. I’m a little worried (like we all are), but my life is not in imminent danger.
But I am trying to do the right thing, and I hope that if things get worse and I do end up in a situation like that man that I will be brave and continue to do the right thing. That’s the lesson I’m taking from him.
If there were a “no genocide” candidate that could win, making that a single issue would matter. Biden supports Israel despite their actions in Gaza… which he has publicly stated he doesn’t agree with and has taken concrete, if underwhelming, steps to try and stop. Trump has shown us during his previous administration and told us recently that he will support Israel harder and will likely take steps to decrease the resistance to the Palestinian genocide if not outright accelerate it. He’ll also accelerate Russian aggression in Ukraine and likely would ignore our Article 5 responsibilities when Putin advances farther into Europe. I’ll assume you’re familiar with the policy differences on climate and how climate change impacts poor regions (like Gaza) more than it impacts affluent ones like the US (and even we’re getting our asses kicked by climate change this year). You can vote to take a moral stand, or you can vote for desired outcomes. The people trying to convince you not to vote 3rd party are trying to convince you to vote for a desired outcome. There is presently no likely outcome that gives us a non-Biden, non-Trump administration for the next 4 years. Based on that fact, we want to maximize the likelihood of the best availa le outcome. That’s what we’re asking…to think about what the world looks like for the people you care about under Biden and compare those outcomes to what it will look like under Trump and vote based on those outcomes. The time to find the ideal candidate is at the beginning of a presidential term, not the end of one.
You can bet your ass most of us are including the ongoing genocide in our voting decision, we’ve just thought about it enough to know our options aren’t between “stopping genocide” and “continuing genocide”, the choice is between “resisting” (aka, the status quo) or “accelerating”.
It’s about having your desires counted on the public record.
Get your desires on the public record in local and state elections and primaries where it might actually matter. For a US presidential election it’s an entirely empty gesture that makes you and only you feel better. No policies will change. No causes will be advanced. History will not remember you. It is very likely, however, that will make the lives of vulnerable people inside and outside of this country worse by giving trump a second term.
No policies will change. No causes will be advanced.
Or, maybe politicians will see that they’re losing votes to anti-genocide third-party candidates, and their policies will change.
And if not, then we don’t have a democracy anyway. If it’s not possible for the USA to cease its support for genocide, then this is not a liberal democracy, and this is certainly not the leader of the free world.
What happened to “never again”? Never again is now and all I’m hearing is “eh, what can you do?”.
You’re gonna need a better example, because people lighting themselves on fire played a tremendous role in ending popular support for America’s occupation of Vietnam during the Vietnam War.
It’s the last thing I would describe as “symbolic”.
Voting for the stunt double from weekend at Bernie’s does not grant you superiority.
Most of us have been voting in the primaries and are involved in local politics. It didn’t matter. The R/D machine drowns out all opposition to its duopoly.
Biden will not win this election. Democracy died while he confusedly stared into the camera for 6 seconds. Beyond that, he fumbled his closing statement which should disqualify from any public speaking position.
Trump is inevitable. We did all we could to get an alternative to Biden, but his hubris will destroy us.
So your solution is to give up and throw your vote away? I’m glad you didn’t want my respect because you didn’t get it.
A literal corpse being paraded around for four years like Weekend at Bernie’s would still be a better choice than Trump. He attempted a coup to invalidate the will of the people and maintain power, sent a mob to attack the Capitol building, and has been charged with 91 felony counts in four jurisdictions just for stuff he did while in office and as a candidate (convicted of 34 and counting).
But democracy died when an old man showed signs of being old? Not all that other stuff? Yeah, I’m voting for Biden. Easiest decision of my life. You should too.
You can argue until you’re blue in the face over there. Biden lost the election with that debate. He didn’t do anything he needed to do this term to protect democracy as we know it and the Supreme Court sealed the R’s final solution today.
It’s over man…game over. Congratulations…your support of the status quo ended Democracy.
In short, yea, I’m perfectly fine not having your respect.
Yeah… sure. Not a tankie, I’m European and don’t care about influencing you to vote for one or another. But after seeing Biden “debate” Trump I know the dems are fucked. I mean sure, still go out and vote, but I honestly don’t see many people doing so.
Absolutely go vote. Tell everyone you know to vote. Don’t vote for Trump. But for the love of god, if you’re otherwise not going to vote, at least vote third party.
Vote down-ticket. Especially for state level Secretary of State and Attorney General candidates. That’s how we’re going to get ranked choice voting in more states
Yeah it’s not great, but like… coming across as coherent is important no matter the position. Biden kinda failed that basic competency test, probably just due to his age and not like, stupidity or a personal failing of any kind. I’m still voting for Biden, but yeah it’s not exactly an enthusiastic vote.
The Dems are intentionally throwing it. It’s the only thing that makes sense at this point. The “Not Trump” donations are lucrative, and there’s no way the R’s will make insider trading illegal.
This might be the spark we need for a legitimate progressive party though. Or we get a civil war, who knows.
I think what will DEFINITELY help is all the immature passive aggression, like this post, that manifests when anyone dares to suggest they might have an issue they need to fix.
You wish! You guys are jealous the Taiwanese are better at being a country than you. So the only logical thing to do is take them down to your level to feel better about yourselves. Taiwan number one!
Taiwan is a province of China and has always been so. You are just an ignorant westerner who knows nothing about history or international relations. Your government only supports Taiwan because they need a useful tool to annoy China, not because they care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people. They would abandon you in a heartbeat if it served their interests elsewhere. But don’t worry, I’m sure the Chinese will take good care of them once they liberate that little island from its fake independence movement.
The DNC replied that you are just a secret Trump fan. The party knows what is best and you should not expect primaries and having a say. Also we have always been at war with East-Asia.
Surely there’s one better young person in the USA ?
None of them ran. Biden’s admin and his fund raising base held enormous sway over the party at-large. As soon as he corralled the support of this tiny monied elite, everyone else had to either get in line or get marked as party pariahs and ousted for their disloyalty.
The pastiche of democracy is predicated on a primary system that can produce and sustain rival candidates. But when leadership in the party are terrified of “Russian bots” and “Leftist Antifa Agitators” undermining the general election, they circle the wagons around their incumbents and bow down to their mega-donors out of cowardice.
No rival candidates means no real primary means no one actually challenges Biden on his merits.
The primary system is obviously corrupted. The incumbent managed to shut out everyone else. This happened on both sides of this inept stupid system. Two candidates who it is painfully obvious are unfit for the job. Geriatrics clogging up the political machine stopping even retirees from having a go.
The youth backlash will eventually upend everything, since not only they are denied a voice, but they will also be made the servants of the boomers for much of the next 20 years.
I’m not sure you realize just how big of a single issue this is.
Trump is a psychopathic cult leader running a campaign of lies, defamation, and retribution. He aspires to be the US’s first authoritarian leader, and wants to turn the nation into a nuclear armed Switzerland. He wants to keep inflation high so that corporate America can continue to enrich the few at the expense of the many. He is literally telling business prices will continue to rise, while simultaneously promising the public that he will bring “Biden’s” high prices down. It’s utter madness.
Because he is “not Trump” could not be a deeper reason to vote for Biden. Especially when not voting or voting for a third party candidate effectively empowers Trump’s campaign and the many more on the right who will always vote for their team no matter what.
For who? The American people are struggling. Meanwhile the wealth gap is wider than it’s literally ever been and Biden is too busy bombing brown children to give a shit
The perception is not quite the same as the reality.
Nevertheless, Trump is doing a better job of fueling this view and promising change, even if it’s all lip service - he doesn’t care because his followers believe everything he says.
The reality is things are better now than in 2020 for most Americans. Unemployment is very low, and wages are up. Relative to the richest of course things are only getting more distant but again, you want Trump to bring equality? Good luck with that, lol.
No I want both of them to unalive, preferably as violently as possible. Unemployment is a vastly flawed metric that doesn’t account for underemployment or discouraged workers, and real wages would be significantly down if the government was accurately measuring inflation, which they’re intentionally not doing so they can continue to pretend that everything’s fine.
Nobody is saying things are fine. They’re just not as bad as they could be, or as bad as might feel to a lot of middle class folks. It’s still very shit for baby though don’t get me wrong.
Not going to wish violence on Biden - he’s only improved things relative to where they were at the end of Trump’s term. But I do want him to walk off into the sunset away from the presidency.
Trump on the other hand I agree is living excrement so I’d be quite happy for him to be flushed. I don’t care about revenge though. I just want his stink gone from the world.
You only say things are fine bc it doesn’t affect you personally that much. Also please stop claiming that Biden has improved anything other than AIPAC’s grip on our tax dollars.
I’m sorry if you’re having a hard time, but the statistics and the Bills Biden has passed are improvements for many, even if they don’t help you personally.
Anyway, hopefully we agree we both want Trump gone, and Biden too. Given how terrible Biden was at the debate there’s a good chance now, and that will mean a better chance the democrats defeat Trump.
Then, the work begins to achieve something even better than what the Democrats have to offer. But it isn’t coming from the right-wing, that’s for sure.
Well, in the current economy, the statistical indicators that economists rely on are booming. GDP, etc. What folks on the left like us are saying is that those indicators are easily measurable but do not paint an accurate picture of what most Americans are experiencing. It doesn’t feel like a boom out here because, well, it ain’t.
It’s not like we’re sipping champagne, kicking it at the beach, and complaining that the guy next door has a nicer beach. We work just as hard as other generations and get a lot less to show for it.
Acknowledging that is important, but corporate politicians in either party seem like they just don’t want to anything about it.
Still voting for Biden, but yeah, not enthusiastically.
Okay, yeah nah I’m with you. I like to think that’s what I was getting at, but you said it better.
If I could vote for Biden I too, would do so without enthusiasm. Let’s hope he steps down though. I swear anyone else has a better chance at this point.
The only outcome that might suck even more is if Biden did step down, Kamala steps up, and she still loses. Cuz then it’s like… oh so we’re just gonna be misogynistic as a voter base now, great, thanks fellow Americans. Like, we were ready to vote for a shambling shell of an old man but not a lady with Hillary Clinton energy, okay. 🤦
Really, if the Dems brought in someone who was like… 50 (and probably not Newsom owing to prolonged hateboner for Cali) they’d gain 10 points in the polls immediately. Whether true or not, the narrative that Biden is old and doddering is there and that debate performance did nothing to dissuade it.
“I just don’t get why people would like ‘not’ being set on fire. Like, it’s just a little fire, what are you, combustible fats wrapped in flammable organic fabrics? I guess it’s simply that it’s not being set on fire that they like. It’s so weird and frustrating.”
I agree that it is heartbreaking that the democrats keep pushing candidates no one wants. But no amount of incompetence is a reason to give fascism a try. I don’t live in America, but considering they run this joint, I’d hate for it to become a shitier Russia.
Biden is definitely not fit to do anything him self, but he’s surrounded by good advisers and he actually fucking listens to them. Under his term not nearly as many horrific things happened as under trump. Trump’s an immediate menace to the world order as we know it. I find it really ironic how he claims to be pro American, but actively destroys the reasons people look up to America and let it have so much influence in the first place.
Quite frankly, go outside and have someone slap you in the face and wake you the fuck up.
It’s not remotely close. Biden still has an actual solid policy agenda, Trump is a senile and decrepit badger, shitting himself and scratching at everything he sees.
You’re choosing between two old men, one of whom is an actual politician with a history of accomplishing things and running a country. The other is a mean old pervert who couldn’t run a business without committing fraud. He literally tried to cheat and destroy the system when he lost the first time.
Nah man it’s close. I could barely tell who you were talking about in your response because they are so similar. If you think a president who can barely have a conversation is acceptable, that’s crazy
Lmao, barely have a conversation? Trump literally can’t even remember what he did or said yesterday, and has literally no plan for actually improving the country in any way shape or form.
Biden passed the Inflation Reduction Act which actually presents a vision for how to return manufacturing to America and restart it’s economy, while addressing climate change. Trump has no plan to address literally any of that.
You need to wake up man. They are not even in the same ballpark.
You mean you don’t have to like Kamala? I’m voting Kamala.
Not fond of her, but she’ll do better than Trump by leagues and miles and make history while not rocking the boat or affecting any meaningful change. Libs will love her, she’ll be a democrat party darling. I bet she gets a second term.
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