Something I don’t get, why is it percentage based? I mean, I get it from the waiters perspective. But as a customer? Whether my one plate of food is 20$ or 200$, he did the same thing. Scaling with more items of time spent would seem more appropriate.
Well usually more people means a higher bill, more people is more work. Lots of places even just add gratuity to the bill once a group size is large enough.
But tipping is dumb, and working in the service industry sucks… I have no easy solutions.
There’s an easy one that could be legislated tomorrow by any states.
Raise minimum wages and enforce it throughout ALL workplaces, including wait staff. Nobody should be earning less than a living wage just because they’re restaraunt staff.
Nobody would work in a restaurant for minimum wage. Full stop. It’s a shit job.
That’s the secret nobody in the industry wants to tell you. They make way more than minimum wage on good nights. You could come away at $25-30/hr on a Friday night.
Seattle’s minimum wage is $16.28, but most restaurants seem to pay a fair bit more than that. Tipping is still rampant and has not been reduced. I don’t think this solution would work
I think the $20 vs $200 was a per person price. Like, if I order the steak for $50 and you order a grilled cheese sandwich for $8, we both got the same amount and quality of service, why do we tip differently?
Serving a $200 meal requires a lot of knowledge and physical skill that the server down at Chili’s probably doesn’t have. The kind of restaurant that sells a $200 meal also has a larger support staff that must be given a percentage of the server’s tip
But, a more expensive meal comes with higher service standards. More attentive, but not intrusive. More knowledgeable about the menu. More readiness to make adjustments based on customer need.
So in that situation you are asking for a more experienced, or more skillfully employee, and that costs more.
I think you’re looking for the difference between fine dining and nouvelle cuisine / haute cuisine. Think of it like the difference between a nice steakhouse where the server essentially takes your order and gives you a plate, and one of those Instagram dinners where they serve your dessert in hollow chocolate balls and serving is a more involved and delicate process because of the nature of the food you’re serving
You’re not wrong, that’s the logic behind it. It’s not like you’re defending it so idk why you’re getting down voted! What you also didn’t mention is that at these restaurants is that it is a much more leisurely meal and experience, so there isn’t high table turnover which lessens the tips. I suspect they also have smaller sections.
Because it’s a con, and if it were a flat rate, people would see it for the con it is. By making it a percentage of sales, you can delude people in to believing they’re going to make more in tips than they would on an hourly rate.
Sometimes that’s true, for the vast majority of servers it isn’t.
I see it as a sneaky incentive from management for waiters to upsell you on more sides, drinks and desserts.
Since the more marked up extras a waiter/waitress can fool people into getting, the better tip they can hope to earn at the end because of the %-based expectation.
Make what right? They’re just bringing it to my table. If the food or service sucks I’m also told that you should tip anyway, so it seems like tipping isn’t based on quality (and really, it isn’t).
$20 is like, one entree, maybe a beverage at a cheap restaurant. $200 is probably closer to 3 entrees, 2 or 3 cocktails and an app at a moderately priced restaurant. You’re crazy if you think the amount of work for those two orders (putting them into the bar/kitchen, making sure they come out correct, running them, all while juggling your other tables) is equal. I also want tipping culture to end, but the price tag scales pretty well with the amount of work being done.
It mostly bothers me when I just order 1 entree and a water. At one place that might cost $10, and at another place it might cost $30, and all the wait staff did was carry a plate from the kitchen to me in both cases.
It doesn’t seem fair that the wait staff at the more expensive place gets tipped more than the less expensive place just because of an arbitrary custom.
The extra cost of the expensive meal is mostly due to ingredients, the cooking process, the location, and maaay slightly more complicated table setting.
Yeah, I agree, but if you don’t like it, take it up with the National Restaurant Association. They spend millions every year lobbying against ending the tipped wage.
If you’re getting the same level of service at a restaurant serving $200/plate meals as you are at TGI Fridays, either you’re being ripped off of your local Fridays has amazing servers.
I remember when I realized tipping is insane (like 15 years ago at a bar). One of my friends was talking the waitress up and she was complaining about another table and the tip she expected. Some quick math worked out to she expected 40%.
Keep in mind by doing that she probably raised her tip from your friend by at least 10%. I wouldn’t assume there wasn’t some strategy in that conversation.
It does annoy me slightly when POS systems have placeholder tip amounts but they’re like 18%, 20%, and 25%. Sorry, but I just do the standard 15% in most cases so now I gotta calculate it out in my head.
Tipping isn’t mandatory. But the issue is if a lot of people stop tipping all at once, servers will quit those locations. Then those locations will almost certainly go out of business because they can’t afford to pay a living wage because the US’s commercial real estate is insanely expensive. Current restaurant models essentially are built on this dynamic and to change it would require a lot of moving pieces to change. But for those pieces to change, a LOT of businesses will need to go out of business all at once to tank the real estate market.
And you may think: if they can’t afford to pay a living wage, they should go out of business. That’s a reasonable stance but it ignores the result: megacorps will buy up real estate and only huge chain restaurants will likely survive these kinds of busts. All your local favorite places will go under and be replaced by Fridays or Applebees because their thousands of locations can close 25% to focus on profitability.
I’ve been asked for tips when having carryout. And also getting a scoop of ice cream. Tipping is a relic of racist practices when southern people didn’t want to pay emancipated black workers a wage. It only still exists because restaurant owners lobby congress to keep it a thing. Stop bribing congress and pay your employees you fucks.
You’re just complaining now. That has not been customary and it annoys me too. Don’t tip if service wasn’t rendered.
Tipping is a relic of racist practices when southern people didn’t want to pay emancipated black workers a wage.
Sad fact but entirely irrelevant to the issue today.
It only still exists because restaurant owners lobby congress to keep it a thing. Stop bribing congress and pay your employees you fucks.
In two sentences you have identified why you can’t just stop tipping AND how to fix it: legislation.
If you stop tipping but still go out, you are essentially doing what racists in the past did by not paying people you would appear to not like. You not tipping is classist bigotry.
Fight for server’s rights in a way that actually makes a difference: contact your congress people and elect people who care about this issue. Not tipping is just hurting people at the lowest rungs of society while still taking their labor. Gross.
Normally, you’re paying a tip on service. So, the waiter hovering over your table and collecting your order / refilling your drink / dusting off the table between courses is part of the dining experience. Its fee for service.
But yeah, now the credit card reader asks if you want to pay a tip to the fucking vending machine. Its asinine.
I’ve been eating in restaurants from street food to nice ones on multiple countries, and continents. Service fee (and taxes too BTW) are always included in the list price. That’s the default
What kind of shithole country you’re living in?
Edit: since servers in USA are paid hourly (even if shitty), the service fee must be in the list price. it’s just the fact that the servers are not paid enough, and the customers are being blackmailed to pay extra off the books
There’s a self service store in the Newark airport that sells overpriced snacks for travelers stuck without any other options. It asks you for a tip while you check yourself out. As if paying $6 for a cup of juice wasn’t bad enough already.
I had one do that (well, even higher, 25, 30, 35, Other) for a retailer recently. Like, it took them under 10 seconds to ring me up and they should automatically get 25%? I chose zero.
Fun fact. When I was a kid, the “standard” was 10%. So food prices have shot up faster than inflation, but you’re still tipping 50% more than what the norm was when tipping was already well established.m, even if you ignore the expensive food you’re tipping for.
Listen, I hate the tipping culture here just as much as everybody else, but the fact is, if you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to go out. Should employees get a decent wage without it, absolutely yes. But they don’t right now, and you not tipping isn’t going to change that.
I agree with you, actually. If you don’t want to tip, fine, don’t tip. But don’t go to a restaurant and then not tip, either, because not only are you still giving the company money, you’re shortchanging the actual person you want to help.
We are not short changing anyone. A tip isn’t a guaranteed income from working.
Also, it’s halrious that you agreed with the previous person, then instantly renegged and said the opposite and went back to he same garbage you said before.
Tipping culture is wrong. Never tip, stop begging.
I’m not contradicting myself. All of my points can coexist.
If you don’t want to tip, fine, stop tipping.
If you go out to eat, tip your staff.
If you want the tipping culture to change, stop going out.
You’re correct, a tip is not guaranteed income, that’s the entire problem. I don’t understand why what I’m saying is so hard to understand. The company will only make up for lost tips for a waiter for so long before they’re fired. Continuing to go out to eat and then not tipping changes nothing, it just makes the waitstaff’s lives harder.
If everyone today stopped tipping, do you think companies would suddenly begin to pay more? I’d wager that wage increases start with the waiting staff, and ends there. Why are you pushing the responsibility onto the customer?
I’m not pushing the responsibility anywhere. If anything, I think it’s the government’s responsibility to take the tipping loophole out of minimum wage laws.
The hostility is entirely unnecessary. If you eat out and don't tip, the only person you're hurting is the person you claim to want to help. If you can't tip, eat at home. If you can, then do so while still fighting for better workers rights. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.
Thanks for the clarification. I sometimes get tunnel vision and forget people live in places with different laws and regulations. Yes, I’m specifically talking about US states where it’s legal to pay a waiter $2.13 an hour because tips make up the rest of federal minimum wage.
you are proposing that if we all stop tipping, companies will be motivated to pay their workers; you are correct, this is what would happen if we all stopped tipping at the same time.
this process is known as collective action. it is incredibly important to remember that collective action only works when it actually happens. in other words, your individual action of not tipping your waiter is ONLY beneficial to your waiter if you can make sure one else tips either.
do you have this power? (i think you don’t; if you do i beg of you to exercise it lol.)
now consider who actually holds the power here. at any point, your restaurant’s owner could institute a no-tip policy, thereby ensuring that no one has to tip, ever. several restaurants already have done this, and it works. now, you might (correctly) note that this may gives an unfair advantage to other competing restaurants who do not implement no-tip policy. this is where local and regional policy can come in to help coordinate transitioning to a more helpful model of compensating employees.
so there’s kind of this imbalance, where yeah technically it’s possible for us as eaters of food to “fix” the tipping problem, but its way way easier for the people in charge (whether that’s government or owners) to fix it, because they have the power of coordination on their side.
tldr, tip your waiters and advocate for anti-tipping policies if you want to maximize long term benefits for everyone.
No, not benefits for everyone. Servers will never get a wage that’s equivalent to the tips they get now. Never.
Go survey servers on the subject and see what they think.
I’m not necessarily against no tipping areas, but I’m not going to act like it benefits the workers. It’s more of a crab bucket mentality where we bring the better paying low-skill job in line with all the rest.
Employees who won’t be able to make a living will go elsewhere. it’s not easy and instant, but eventually if a restaraunt can’t staff itself, it will collapse.
We should absolutely not be subsidizing restaraunt owners who are only keeping a float by paying low wages. if they can’t afford to properly pay their staff, they don’t deserve to operate.
My man, I have no idea why you got down voted. You’re 100% correct. Can’t afford to tip, can’t afford to eat out. Eating out is a luxury, not a necessity. Grocery stores have frozen food if you don’t want to cook.
OP is right, and the users on Lemmy are salty. Waiters make $2.13 / hour they survive off tips. If you don’t tip, the system doesn’t change, you’re just an asshole
FWIW this is completely location dependent. Where I am at in the USA waiters are paid $15 / hr plus whatever tips they recieve and I tip unless the service was completely abysmal.
If nobody tips for their entire shift they will make $7.25-$15 an hour, not $2.13. That $5.12-$12.87 is just pocketed by the restaurant if they get tipped.
No, but it makes tipping a necessity if you go out. My stance on this is that if you want to enact change, stop eating out. Continuing to eat out but then not tipping doesn’t do anything except shortchange the wait staff. The company still gets your money.
When you say that common indulgences are “luxuries” are not required, you’re promoting austerity. You’re asking people to forgo life’s pleasures for no real gain. That NEVER works. People won’t just stay at home eating simple food unless they will go broke otherwise. With a world of billionaires we can’t ask for austerity; it’s morally bankrupt.
I mean, that feels like common sense to me. I have less money than I had last year, so my girlfriend and I eat out less, I buy less video games, I buy more chicken and less beef, I buy less alcohol, etc. etc. It’s just a reality of inflation.
We avoided the recession, the result is inflation is destroying our wallets, so we have to spend less to still pay our bills.
That’s more of a function of corporate greed than anything else. They’re all hiding behind each other while ripping you off, and getting away with it because it’s difficult to call out any one company when they’re all doing it.
What are you going to do about it, compete in the marketplace? The barriers to entry are high enough that that is extraordinarily difficult. And if you do manage it, why would you charge less than market rate? And you’re likely to just get bought out by a bigger competitor anyway, so grats on your cash out.
I got chased down the street on my first day by someone I tipped. I didn’t know it was actually taboo. Apparently tipping is an insult. The staff chased me down on the street to return it to me.
The issue here isn’t tipping in general… It’s the audacity to try and increase percentages while prices are also going up for everything, including that same meal compared to a couple years ago.
Tipping in general is bullshit and we need to fix the root cause of employers not being required or willing to pay fair wages, across the entire economy, not just service industries.
One thing: We’re not on the verge of a recession. The right wing media needs to make things up to attack and that was one of them. I couldn’t believe all that talk, nothing happened, nothing was about to happen, but they fear mongered for months.
It’s true, but it’s not a great talking point. Every time you say we’re in a good spot, you’re going to have voters who aren’t in a good spot. So then you have to couch it in talk about doing more.
You’re right in that it’s worthy of bragging about; it’s just a tricky subject.
Getting real sick of the customer holding the weight of being the financial planner for a business and the owners getting by with no blame for wage stealing and shitty business practices in this circumstance.
Planet earth’s been on the verge of a recession since 4bya. Various economists have been able to predict a recession every year since the term was invented. Stay safe
Recession has a specific definition. Unless you’ve had however many quarters of negative growth or bad GDP or however the fuck economists define it then you’re not in recession.
Based on my quick search I’m assuming by “they” you mean the NBER and by “we” you mean the USA? It seems the rest of us have agreed on the definition being 2 quarters.
We definitely get a little peeved if it’s under 15, but frankly those people aren’t worth getting mad at. Someone else always comes by and makes up for it anyways
Plus, it’s unprofessional, awkward, and generally pointless to actually say something about it.
The whole damn system exists to place the burden of a living wage on the customer while the company paying peanuts can claim no wrongdoing. And the really sad part is: it has worked.
Edit: and there are many, many businesses that wouldn’t be in business if they actually had to pay competitive wages on their own. The invisible hand can fix nothing if tipping culture says to throw more and more arbitrary amounts of money at people to subsidize their wages yourself. At some point (I’d argue we’re past it already), the band-aid needs to get ripped off. Only then will we see self-correction. The almost immediate loss of many businesses will likely trigger other actions. It’s already a no-win scenario.
Yes, but one way is on the company first and one isn’t. Would prices go up if these places were paying living wages? Most likely. Many businesses would be insolvent because their business model was simply never designed to pay a living wage to employees. Others could remain solvent, but probably not if they continue to take so much off the top at higher positions.
And that’s exactly it: the market never self-corrects if we throw arbitrary money in excess of listed prices to solve was is ultimately an issue of business solvency and ethics. There is no economic theory that would support such an idea in any industry, but here we are.
The sheer number of businesses out of the space might even drive down rents. That’s the kind of thing I mean by “other actions”. But things cannot continue as they are.
None of this is even to mention the sheer number of people in the service industry who are also on government assistance programs. They have to be – none of the blame is on them. But my tax dollars go to that, plus I am expected to pay extra to subsidize their wages with tips. I effectively subsidize them twice while someone reaps the rewards on their yacht. All I’m saying is the yacht people should be taking the risks first. That’s part of being a business owner.
I don’t think a lot of Lemmy understands it doesn’t matter how you are subsidizing the wages, you’re doing it regardless. Like this clown who thinks food will be cheaper if more cash goes through the owner to the waiter instead of straight to the waiter. Regardless of system the customer is paying for everything, not the owner, unless of course his business is failing. Imagine the entitlement required to desire everyone change their model to make things cheaper for you, at a business that is completely a luxury. You could simply learn to cook instead of whining about tipping.
This is not true. I’ve visited the USA multiple times and I’ve gotten tipping wrong every time.
the market isn’t gonna correct if it goes away because you’ll still be paying the exact same amount.
This is also not really true. You look at a menu in Australia and the price you see is the exact amount you pay. $20 lunch is $20 on the bill. No added tips or taxes or anything.
For the customer, this system is better.
Saying that same lunch in the USA would ‘have been $14 on the menu in the USA’ would not match my experience. In fact, prices for most things were in the same rough ballpark once the exchange rate was factored in.
Caveat: my last visit was 10 years ago. My experience may be out of date. 15% was considered a normal tip, then.
I’m sorry you’re a moron, and I don’t take financial advice from people who can’t figure out something as simple as tipping protocol. And quit lying, food is definitely cheaper on average in the states, and greater quantity too.
The food is pumped with filler trash, so the quantity is definitely there, but the prices aren’t as cheap as you think, especially for what you’re getting.
Oh look, an Aussie that needs you know that. Yes yes, everything is better there, it has to be, why else would y’all spend so much time trying to convince everyone of it.
Tipping does still suck though, and the way it is in many states of the US, slow business literally means employees get paid less, which is pretty fucked.
Australia certainly isn’t perfect, and don’t let anyone tell you how great Medicare is here because it’s not what it uses to be and slowly but surely slipping into private health insurance hell due to its languishing, but heck, defensive much mate?
I am glad that I don’t have to deal with tipping. Tipping is trash and seemingly many Americans agree it’s trash.
Not defensive, I really don’t care for Australians, they’ve a way of conducting themselves that I find very fucking irritating. New Zealanders i can get along with.
Tipping is good bc you van pay the employee directly. What needs to change is that tips need to be mandatory and when tips fall short of a living wage the business must pay pay to make up.
What difference is there to you, then, between “employer pays a reasonable living wage to their employees but raises the prices of the food a bit to accommodate” and “employer pays poverty wages, forcing the customers to pay their employees for them and forcing tax payers to pay up when people earning poverty wages inevitably rely on government programs to simply survive?” If tipping is mandatory, the only people that benefit is the employer since they can simply double dip - spend less money on payroll AND force the customer to make up for your lack of willingness to pay competitive wages. Yes, under current law, employers are supposed to make the difference if tips can’t cover at least minimum wage, but that’s not enforced nearly as much as it should be, which puts the onus on the workers being exploited in the first place, and even then minimum wage in this country is embarrassingly unfit for supporting anybody.
The more important question to ask is “why am I expected to pay an employee when the money I already give to a business should cover wages in the first place?”
I’m a tipped employee for my day job. I make a decent base pay, but the tips make up for that in spades during busy seasons. I’ve bought my current car with tip money. Despite this, I fully support getting rid of tips if it meant my livelihood wouldn’t be a gamble depending on factors outside my control, and especially if it meant fewer people had to rely on government assistance and could better provide a livelihood for themselves.
I agree wholeheartedly! Let’s make tipping mandatory. In fact, let’s add it on to the price of your bill automatically. Better still, let’s just add it onto the menu price. Oh hey, we’ve come full circle.
If you can’t afford the bill then don’t eat there. That sucks to hear I know. However the only way we’re going to reign in costs is by sticking to what’s affordable. If restaurants can’t charge that price then food distributors have to lower prices too. We all benefit by sticking to affordability.
If you’re worried about money you absolutely should open up the restaurant’s menu on their website or before you order and figure out what you can afford with a 20% surcharge. That said tipping was created by the industry to externalize costs and it needs to go die in a fire.
I think the point isn’t about the bill but the expectation of massive tips. It’s too out of control to me, I used to tip 20% everywhere. Now I’ve gone back to 15% for regular service, and 20% if it’s really exceptional.
20% minimum unless the service is horrible. It’s not your fault the servers are paid BELOW minimum wage because the employer expects you to tip. But it nonetheless is the expectation and is the right thing to do. If you can’t afford to tip correctly you can’t afford to eat out.
To be clear, i think we should get rid of tipping economy, but while it is the norm, you absolutely have to tip.
Sure, but on the flip side, I’m paying for the service already. It’s not on us to subsidize the cost.
TIpping was meant and should only be done as a reward for job well done. Not a defacto standard expectation just because you did your job.
That’s what your pay is.
NOW, go fight for better wages. Unionize, promote higher minimum wages, be the change you want to see. But sitting here and bitching out customers because they don’t tip is a you problem.
Some states honor the state minimum wage which is higher than federal and the tips really are just extra. Just so you know, whatever it’s worth to you.
At what point did this minimum change from 10 to 15 to 18 and now 20? Restaurants increase the cost of food items and your tip is a proportion of that. Why would the cost of food increase AND the proportion of tip also increase? That’s double dipping and yeah, people should be pissed about it
What does covering more employees over the same period mean? I don’t follow. Also, you’re assuming that customers’ salaries increased with COL and inflation. They haven’t. These policies just squeeze value out of customers. Of course they’re offended
So tips used to just go to the worker who got them. But now they go to nearly everyone at the restaurant. Your server has to tip out quite a few other people.
And yeah we know the rising prices are squeezing value of customers, but those prices are largely disconnected from the staff’s wages. Which is why the percentage has to go up.
Is this not even worse double-dipping? Why would a server who makes $3/hr be expected to tip out the rest of the restaurant? That’s the point of being able to pay them $3/hr no?
Wages being disconnected from company earnings is an even bigger reason for us to insist the percentage NOT go up…
No, rising prices of menu items increases tips as a proportion. If menu prices stayed the same and you want larger tip %, then sure. But not both. That’s just greedy
In many places including Washington state servers are actually paid minimum wage of a bit over $16 an hour. We also have pervasive tip requests. I have gone to a restaurant where ordering and drinks was self serve, the employee makes you a hot sandwich which you take to go and the robot which takes your order requests a default 20% tip.
It’s highly unlikely that a POS terminal software directs tip money directly to the software company. Hopefully tips are shared by staff. Pessemistically they could be stolen by the company. In either case it doesn’t match the normal expectation of tipped service.
Maybe Square is the odd one out, but a quick trip around Google search says yes it’s generally the default. It can be turned off but why would a business owner do that?
I don’t eat out at resturants ever - and guess what! When that happens, they bitch and moan about my not supporting local businesses, and steal millions in PPP loans!
You’ll hate to hear this, but restaurants struggling to fill positions and having to offer more benefits and pay to attract wait staff is the only way to end tipping culture. Tipping will never end itself.
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