US presidents acting in their official capacity were always immune to prosecution for murder. Johnson and Nixon wiped out entire villages in Vietnam, never held accountable.
True, but now it’s legal do wrap Trump and all his judges in American flags and throw them out a third floor window. The flag makes it official business. Welcome to Putin town.
I’m honestly not sure why he doesn’t just have all of SCOTUS murdered, and if anyone in Congress moves against him, have then eliminated as well. Do Trump in, whole he’s at it. Full on blood bath.
Couldn’t they just vote that it wasn’t an “official” presidential action and try him for murder? With this new ruling and the absurdly vague definitions of what is or isn’t official it seems like absolutely anything is legal but only if the SCOTUS say it is. So right now it certainly seems like if you wear red you could do anything you want and if you wear blue you are screwed six ways to Sunday. I may be misunderstanding this whole thing tho.
I don’t know, but I do know that Biden has to win now, and we need a majority of Democrats in Congress. Something has to be done to balance the damage this Supreme Court is doing, or we will get a dictator soon. And it might be a Democrat dictator; it’s more likely to be a Republican, but the Presidency is quickly gaining dictator-like powers.
I don’t know, but I do know that Biden has to win now, and we need a majority of Democrats in Congress. Something has to be done to balance the damage this Supreme Court is doing, or we will get a dictator soon. And it might be a Democrat dictator; it’s more likely to be a Republican, but the Presidency is quickly gaining dictator-like powers.
Earlier today I was writing about how we are in a full blown constitutional crisis now. Then I realized that we aren’t. The crisis is over and the Supreme Court chose to abandon the constitution. The crisis was happening before this decision was made, but very few people were aware or alarmed about it. We are now in a state where I doubt there’s any legal recourse. We’ve moved on to another stage and that terrifies me.
Sadly probably would never happen without a lot changing. It is really hard to get one passed unless it’s supported by both parties and the Republicans in the US want this (requires two thirds vote in both the House and Senate which rarely happens for any policy that’s actually worth passing).
There aren’t really almost any Republicans willing to do anything against Trump at this point. I guess nothing is impossible given how bad things are but
Problem is, it’s up to the courts to decide what is and isn’t “official us business”. As of now, everything Trump does will be “official”, and nothing Biden does would be “official”.
Doesn’t matter what is fair and even cause Republicans don’t play by that game.
The Supreme Court isn't really interested in arguments, it seems. They're starting at conclusions and working backwards. In a sane world, you're probably right with the logic. But in a sane world we wouldn't have made it to this point to begin with.
It’s also hard to argue that any “official” act a president does is immune from prosecution. There is absolutely no way to twist the Constitution’s words to have that meaning. But they did it anyway.
No, from Europe I tell you, we see you as less democratic than you used to and with many problems that can escalate and screw you up (we are not celebrating here either), but you are still far from being a failed state, there are still police more or less functional, you can still call the fire department if your house catches fire, there is still a clear institutional hierarchy, more authoritarian but clear.
Yes, the speed at which you are flushing democracy down the toilet, when, I don’t know maybe 20 years ago, you were the example to follow in many aspects, it is surprising for everyone.
Oh, I thought you were an American worried about how you look outside and I was trying to calm you down. I respect your perspective of course, but it seems to me that a failed state is a bit exaggerated for this, Somalia or Yemen are still a little worse than the USA in the comparison. Authoritarian, close to breaking up as a nation, things like that I think are closer to reality, that is my vision also from the outside, I could be wrong and you may be closer to reality.
The way I see it, it’s a failing state. Some institutions are still working “properly” so to speak. Some are going to shit, and some are already fucked.
Yes, I suppose you are right, the most basic thing has not failed but certain fundamental and important institutions seem to be in it, in any case one can have a horrible and dystopian but functional totalitarian state, without being failed, I don’t know if I explain my point correctly .
this is also for @9point6, I don’t know how to answer both of you at the same time, but what I say is valid for both of us.
No that’s fair to say, there was a bit of nuance in me saying “looking a bit like a failed state” and not explicitly saying “is a failed state”—I’m more saying they’re long down the road, not necessarily there yet
This is literally explicitly legalized fascism and its the law of the land right now. Even if Biden wins he needs to do something to stop this before he leaves office or the US will forever be exactly as fascist as the President decides he wants to be. It’s here now.
There’s not much he can do short of committing a crime himself. Democrats don’t have control of the House, so there no way to increase the size of SCOTUS. They were smart in ruling bribery is legal before granting immunity, or Biden would have been able to officially order the DOJ to investigate SCOTUS for corruption.
His hands are tied unless he wants to get blood on them.
The ruling just absolves him from criminal activity. It doesn’t give him complete power to increase the size of SCOTUS or retire Justices. He’d have to order a hit on a Justice to leverage that ruling, and that is an act of an insane person.
Can they, though? I’m sure there’s some 200 year old policy about having all ballots cast into the straw hat behind the vending machine on a Thursday afternoon between 3 and 5, in order to count.
It changed size six times before settling on nine Justices in 1869. Each time it was determined by a congressional vote. It’s not up to POTUS, it’s up to Congress.
I’m not the one being slow. SCOTUS had 8 people while McConnell held up Garland.
Officially SCOTUS was and is nine people. But if the wheels of government turn slow enough, SCOTUS continues to do its job with whoever has made it through the process.
Officially 9, it functioned with 8. No one is credibly saying all those decisions must be thrown out or that SCOTUS cannot function during a shortage.
If that shortage was 4, people would be vocal. But legally, it would still be functional.
I not talking about changing the official number. I never did in this thread until you did.
The president thought that people shouldn’t eat chocolate ice cream. It’s anti-american.
And “for the good of the country” anyone who eats chocolate ice cream has to be isolated from the rest of society.
That’s not an official act. It’s not really on the periphery of official acts.
But because definitionally, anything that, at the president’s sole discretion, is “in the best interest of the United States” is now argued as an official act.
Biden likes vanilla ice cream.
But he isn’t going to detain you for unamerican activities if you prefer chocolate ice cream.
It is not giving POTUS any additional authority. It grants POTUS immunity from criminal prosecution of a crime related to an official act.
Biden could personally slap the ice cream cone out of your hand and get away with it, if a court ruled it to be an official act. No one else is immune from crime committed on his behalf.
This was tailored to Trump’s insurrection charges. If SCOTUS granted POTUS more executive privilege, Biden would just overrule SCOTUS and exempt felons from presidential candidacy.
Is that an act of an insane person? It’s apparently legal, now. Do you broadly think that using violence against tyranny is insane? Our founders committed their lives and fortunes to the violent overthrow of tyranny. It would be much easier, sitting in the oval office, with legal authority granted to him by the very people he would be targeting, to authorize the extrajudicial execution of a few traitors. Do you think that extrajudicial execution is insane? Then you’ll have to admit that most presidents in the last few decades were insane, especially Obama. Is it only insane when the target is white people in power, rather than brown-skinned people overseas?
I’m not commenting, at this time, on whether it would be moral, or wise, but insane? I can’t see how.
I think it would set a very low bar for all subsequent Presidents if Biden used the new power to assassinate members of SCOTUS or Congress. The repercussions would be horrific.
I get what you’re saying, here. That’s why I specifically disclaimed making any judgement about whether it would be moral, or wise. But consider the other side of that same coin: the court did this specifically to overthrow democracy and allow Trump, or any other president who will carry out Project-2025 to use this power to maintain an effective dictatorship. There’s no other explanation for this ruling. Would using this absurd power once, now, to restore a court that is loyal to the Constitution and People of America, be worse than letting Trump get in, assassinate any and all opposition, and end democracy? Could we trust it to end there? Would Biden install justices that would immediately reverse the ruling and bring things back to normal, or just install his own loyalists? I dunno, it’s complicated.
Ultimately, it’s also all just theoretical, anyhow. I find it almost inconceivable that Biden would do this.
If being in contact with the DOJ and VP is “official duties” and thus immune to prosecution regardless of the content of the contact, then being in contact with the CIA and asking them to “retire” some justices should be as well under more or less exactly the same line of reasoning.
He can pack the supreme court. Then limit it to something tangible.
Like first, say that 2 senators per state is silly and it needs to be based on population like the house if reps. Then say that we need a supreme court justice from all 50 states + D.C. or some shit.
Boom.
Then term limits, age limits… Ranked choice, strict laws in gerrymandering…
There are so many misinformed people on this ruling. It doesn’t give the President more executive authority, like a king. It lets him commit crime without personal responsibility if it’s an official act.
Yes, it’s insane and deplorable, but it doesn’t mean Biden can do anything he wants.
If it did, he could just outlaw felons from becoming President. SCOTUS doesn’t want that.
It really doesn’t change much. Instead of just ignoring what presidents do that might be criminal, it’s explicitly immune.
Also this ruling doesn’t grant further immunity to others. The president can order seal team 6 to kill someone, but they’d still face charges if it wasn’t plausibly a legitimate target.
Good point, and well made. The immunity is explicitly for POTUS. If those carrying out the act are aware they are committing a crime they could be charged accordingly.
It unfortunately may change a lot for Trump, depending on what judges rule to be “official acts” of his Presidency. Cannon may use this to throw out the documents case.
Cannon may use this to throw out the documents case.
How? The documents case is about stuff he did after he left office. Things he does after he is no longer President definitionally cannot be official acts of his Presidency.
There is no duration limit to the immunity ruling. If she deems the ownership of documents an official act, she could rule that immunity covers all acts related to the documents until their return.
I don’t understand what you mean. Even if he believed he had the right to retain the documents, he wasn’t willfully improperly keeping the documents or obstructing their retrieval until after he was out of office - you’d basically just have to not charge him regarding any documents he handed over the first time, because after the first time handing over documents he definitely knew better and definitely wasn’t in office.
Oh, I agree that it should be considered a crime. I’m just suggesting a way Cannon may leverage this in Trumps favor.
Since there’s no requirement that the President needs to be actively in office for immunity, if she ruled that his ownership of the documents was an “official act,” then any crime he may have committed involving the documents could be considered in service of said act.
If it did, he could just outlaw felons from becoming President. SCOTUS doesn’t want that.
“I have ordered the military to detain Donald Trump in a Federal max security prison and destroy all ballots marked with his name on election day. This is not a change in the laws of our great nation, this is just an act that I am ordering to be performed in my official capacity as POTUS. God bless America.”
lmao, I mean, I don’t think it has any real chance of happening. But what stops it is Biden being Biden. If it were, say, a fascist in the Oval Office, the only question would be “Who do I ask to do this dirty work?”
To be fair. He just has to kill off the maga leadership. MAGAs are weak-minded followers, they will throw their impotent tantrums, then get distracted. The non-magas in the regressive party (gop) will cower then do their usual thing, hell most of them will instantly turn on maga when it has no teeth anymore. When he stops there, and normal Regressives don’t get persecuted or attacked, and the US starts getting better, they will all carry on…and McConnel, who will still somehow be alive, will say it was all his idea.
Blood on his hands from BLM protesters, Palestinians, trans people, Ukrainians who could use the support more than Israel, most Americans who don’t have enough to live with life threatening illnesses, Mexicans at the border, ignoring COVID…
Fuck the Court. It doesn’t care about America. The penalty for teason is…?
If you or I did anything close to what Trump and the Courts did and do on a daily basis we’d be arrested in a high security prison. Jan 6th had next to no punishment for any of the leaders.
That’s the funny thing. He cant commit crimes anymore. He’s immune from the law. All he needs to do is order the military to destroy the corruption in the Supreme Court using the legal doctrine known as bullets in the brainpan. Poof, problem solved. You don’t even have to kill people, just a few fascists.
Frankly? He needs to get on with that malicious compliance to graphically - and yes, in some cases violently - demonstrate why this is a terrible fucking idea. I’m genuinely not looking forward to it, but at the same time I do think it’s become absolutely necessary.
in all honesty, that’s what you Americans need to do. the days of peaceful protests and marching are behind you, you missed that boat a while ago. now a ship named “Revolution” has just pulled into dock and if you’re not on that boat then there’s no more boats coming.
Stop using the excuse of “but I need to work, I have to pay rent, I have to pay bills” because in 4 months time you might not have a job to pay those bills or rent. hell depending on if you’re a woman, LGBTQ+, liberal, black, an immigrant, etc, etc, etc you might have none of the above.
The American people and the country as a whole are literally, currently, right now in real time dying by a thousand cuts. you’re being slowly and methodically murdered with precision and too many of you don’t realize you’re dying. Time to demand heads on pikes and if they aren’t handed to you, well you need to go out and get them.
One way or another people are going to die. I mean I’m not going to sugar coat this, people will die.
So the question is would you rather die laying on your back doing nothing or would you rather die saving whats left of your nation and fighting for your fellow American?
Easier said than done. How could this bloody revolution ever come out in the people’s favor when the US government controls the most powerful military in the world? I want to know how everyone spouting off about taking power back by force realistically thinks it will play out.
Not “may have,” did. They did legalize any action taken by the person holding the office of the presidency. Trump tried to have his VP killed for fucks sake. That actually happened. It’s no longer the case that everyone in America is equal under the law. The president is now legally allowed to do anything that would get the rest of us thrown in jail. This society isn’t even pretending to be equal anymore. We’re finished.
I’m so fucking tired, and I feel like that was one of the main points of this. Dems are too exhausted and afraid of taking big actions to do anything about this, so like I said, we’re finished.
I see the /s but she says she will file articles of impeachment against one member of the Supreme Court once Congress is back. And it’s about time. They should all be bogging everything down with this until the election because it’s that important.
Articles that will be immediately shot down by the Republican house majority and probably a few spoilers as well because they need to make it more obvious they want a real dictatorship.
Guaranteed they do, but every member of the house that cares about democracy should bring their own. The Congress should be nothing but this until the election. Let the Republicans go on record everyday until the election denouncing democracy.
AoC falls out a window in the next 4 years…I’m pretty sure there’s going to be a lot of high profile Democrats having accidents as soon as Trump gets back in the chair.
They do, and it will only be “official” when a Republican does it. Once they control the courts, it’s game over. Nothing short of unstacking the court will avert a fascist dictatorship.
I do find it amusing that SCOTUS made a ruling that legalizes having them assassinated as an “official act” though. After all, being in contact with intelligence agencies is definitely an official act as is writing pardons, so he can always pardon the assassin(s) afterward.
They remanded to the lower courts to determine that. But like it does have some implication. They definitely did not say everything the president does is an official action.
So doesn’t that mean the US didn’t really ever have separation of powers? Sounds like the door to fascism wasn’t locked and we just used the honour system.
Yeah, that’s unfortunately right. So much of the American system is based on norms and ideals that we trusted our leaders to respect. The Supreme Court has seized their authority, and since they refuse to recognize Congressional oversight (the Chief Justice has regularly refused to appear before Congress), there’s very little we can do.
Exactly, and that’s how this court is so tricky. By not fully defining what an “official act” is, they’re claiming the power to decide later. Because that very issue will inevitably reach them after some batshit district court ruling. So they ultimately get to decide regardless, and this court regularly makes up ahistorical and completely absurd justifications that don’t pass the smell test, so we’re doomed.
As far as I can tell, yup. And by official, it basically means anything done while in office, so he could theoretically walk out onto Pennsylvania Avenue, spray a group of protestors holding signs with an M16, and walk back inside with no legal repercussions.
I’m fucken angry. We need to get together. We need to protest. We need to do it relentlessly on their doorsteps until the country is in distinction from us not showing up to work. Its either that or fascism wins.
It’s no longer the case that everyone in America is equal under the law.
Is there a “never has been” version of the “always has been” meme?
Them taking the mask off and being open about it is serious and dangerous don’t get me wrong, but lets not pretend the law is, or ever was written nor administered equally - filthy rich and powerful white men in particular have always put themselves above it.
Nah unfortunately you’re 100% right, it has never actually been equal in practice. But at least we all could delude ourselves into thinking that we were striving towards that principle. It’s all laid bare now, and it’s fucking ugly. The fact that they’ve been actively working towards these very goals with laser focus, for decades, makes it all the worse.
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