You know what’s “funny”. Vegans DO fund not only alternatives but also meat subsidies with the taxes on vegan food. For meat to be as cheap as it is, a lot of tax money is going into the industry
It makes me think of that Stone Henge thing just recently. That was such a despicable shit show that people have been calling it a false flag to distance it from actual activism.
They used water soluble pigment. It’ll wash off when the rain comes. There’s no chemical reaction with the stone that could cause lasting damage. And given that it’s fucking England, I’m sure the rain has already come and washed it away. You’re getting mad over nothing.
Edit the moderators of the vegan community have decided that they don’t want you to read what was written in the thread and have removed all of my comments
They only need to be pregnant once. The calf milk is different than normal milk and can not be sold. The stuff we drink is what happens after a calf is born but you never stop milking so the cow stays productive. I think you need to revisit mamal biology. Once the process of Milk production is started milk will be produced in most mammals till the long term cessation of mamary tisssue stimulation.
Im sorry, but what kind of mammal biology are you talking about that says that two different types of milk come from the same animal?
Also, milk production usually does go down somewhat over time and sometimes even does cease, and it’s different for every individual, which makes it less predictable and less profitable to just impregnate a cow once. This is why dairy farmers almost always try to impregnate their cows yearly. Here’s one source, there’s plenty more coming up if you look it up on a search engine though www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/…/farming
Even if what you said was true (spoilers: it’s not and you’re making shit up, most dairy cows are impregnated once a year) your argument is that it’s ok because we only rape and kill the cows calf shortly after birth once.
It’s fine that you have shitty opinions, but stop spreading misinformation to support them. And definitely stop doing it while using big words to smugly pretend you’re smarter than other people.
Nope that’s not how it works at all. They keep reimpregnanting the mother and then they take the calf away for slaughter while the mother cries for her child for months on end.
Cows are mammals. They produce milk for their calves, its not something that cows just naturally produce. So the dairy industry only exists from repeated forcible impregnation.
They’re the same industry. Impregnate cows to keep them producing milk, steal the babies away and either raise them to get impregnated or send them to be slaughtered for veal. You’re either lying or clueless and I don’t really care to find out which it is anymore, I’ve lost interest. Have fun.
You realise that veal is often just the calves taken from dairy cows, right? If you drink milk you are already supporting veal. They’re killed anyway, it’s just the difference between them being discarded or being sold.
You see part of the problem with the system then. This is why vegans go as far as possible and practicable, because animal abuse is built into everything and is not optional. We’re trying to minimize it where we can, and use that momentum to eventually get rid of some of the malevolent built in nonsense we all have to deal with. Nobody should be subsidizing cow rapists and murders, and it shouldn’t be a requirement to live here to.
You’re obviously not listening to what I’m saying.
I understand you have strong feelings about your beliefs but not everyone does.
When you attack someone for not sharing your feelings you are as bad as the anti-abortion people or the republicans who want to take away the rights of the LGBTs.
How the fuck did you think milk was produced? This is literally grade school biology. Farmers rape cows for their milk, and you pay them for the privilege.
I think you seriously underestimate how much non-human raping goes on in the animal world. Many species have dicks that have evolved specifically to facilitate rape.
What does that have to do with humans choosing to rape cows for profit? Total non-sequitur. Bears shit in the woods, does that mean you do too? Animals rape, therefore you should too?
It’s literally penetrating a genitals to impregnate them against their will for our own benefit, the definition of rape. Saying you don’t care about the rape of cows and will keep eating dairy is your opinion, but denying that it is rape is just straight up cognitive dissonance.
It’s like if you pay a hitman to do some murders for you. Are you a murderer? I guess not technically, but ‘conspirator to commit murder’ doesn’t have the same ring to it. Thus we just opt for rapist, since you support an industry that annually rapes cows and kills their calves so that you can enjoy a tall glass of cow juice.
It’s ok if that’s what you want to do. No judgement here.
You can’t really compare the two things. You have limited control over how your taxes are spent, you can vote on how you want them spent and protest the actions of your government, but outside of that it’s not up to you.
With milk, though, you are directly financing it by buying the product, and the product wouldn’t exist without those things happening. So you are in effect a ‘conspirator to cow rape’ since your demand incites the act.
Ok, so because you’re being needlessly pedantic here is the comparison.
I am not directly responsible for the wars and murders my government commits because of the reasons I stated above. But if they had a big bucket that said ‘put money in this big bucket to directly support the wars and murders of your government’ and I were to put money in of my own free will - then yes I would be directly responsible for those wars and murders.
If I do not put money in I am not directly responsible.
That’s the difference between paying taxes and buying a bottle of cow milk.
I guess I don’t agree with you. If I buy a product that specifically requires the death of an animal I would feel like I am responsible for the death of that animal and monetarily incentivising the death of other animals.
If I pay a hitman to kill someone I am not innocent of murder.
You don’t get to support an industry that kills animals and then say you’re not responsible for the death of animals.
the animal is dead long before I walk into a store or restaurant, and the people who did the killing have already been paid. I have no responsibility for that.
Without getting into a semantics debate on what rape is. The reason the word is used is because dairy cows are impregnated by fisting the cows asshole and stimulating their cervix before squirting a semen gun into their vagina. The cows cannot consent to this so the word rape is used. Some people might not consider it rape for whatever reason and yes, the word was probably chosen to be provocative. But that’s the explanation.
Beyond burgers are literally right there lmao. You don’t need lab grown meat to stop supporting animal abuse, it’s a thinly veiled excuse to avoid having to change and grow as a person
2 things, 1) I can’t afford it as a regular item 2) Id say they’re maybe 70% there, there’s still a taste and texture issue. I personally don’t mind it and would happily switch over if it weren’t for #1
Vegans/Vegetarians will never get the vast majority of people out there to give up meat, best shot is that lab meat if they can get the cost equivalent to real meat.
Sounds like the perfect thing to advocate that the government subsidizes while the tech matures and comes down in cost on its own.
70% is way more than enough there that it’s no excuse to support animal abuse
Like I said, if I could afford it I would have switched already long ago, I personally am fine with the taste and texture. But for many others, that 30% is gonna be a deal breaker.
Impossible burgers cooked right on the skillet are pretty damn good, imo. And easy. I’m no vegetarian but we keep them in our weeknight rotation.
Edit: Connect is messing up and I can no longer see some comments below. The study you cite, SMCF, uses the Nova classification system to define ultra-processed foods, meaning that category contains “soft drinks, sweet or savoury packaged snacks, confectionery; packaged breads and buns; reconstituted meat products and pre-prepared frozen or shelf-stable dishes.” This gives you no information on Impossible burgers’ impact on cardiovascular disease, it only gives you a trend among people who eat all of the above. I would suspect the reality is Impossible meat contributes to CVD slightly more than straight-up vegetables and significantly less than red meat.
They have more protein, fiber, and iron than beef.
Red meat consumption has been shown to increase risks of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and cancer, full stop.
I don’t know what a “health food” would be, but I would probably classify them as foods that are healthier alternatives to foods that are proven bad for your health. Which is what “Impossible” etc. are.
Health food is anything that isn’t processed to hell and back.
Impossible is just alternative junk food. Like vapes are for cigarettes. Healthier still means crap. I’d probably just use mushrooms or tofu as a patty if I wanted an alternative to beef.
Unfortunately, a lot of people are not well-informed about what “processed” food constitutes, to begin with.
According to the Department of Agriculture, processed food are any raw agricultural commodities that have been washed, cleaned, milled, cut, chopped, heated, pasteurized, blanched, cooked, canned, frozen, dried, dehydrated, mixed or packaged.
As such, most of our diet is processed food, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If there are particular ingredients that have been added in the processing of any consumer product that are themselves bad for your health, I would definitely encourage abstinence from that product.
While vaping is monumentally safer for one’s health than cigarette smoking, both are still a needless introduction of potential harm to one’s health, I agree.
But we must eat food, and the harm from that food being vaguely “processed” versus the harm from it containing ingredients certainly known to contribute to stroke, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes just isn’t a worthwhile comparison.
The definition by The Global Panel on Agrigulture and Food Systems for Nutrition of “Ultra-Processed Foods” is contingient on those foods being depleted in dietary fiber, protein, various micronutrients, and other bioactive compounds.
While the oreos you’re using in other examples would probably fit that definition, the alternative meats we’re discussing don’t, as they are “processed” to include those constituents.
Your wikipedia links don’t make an assertion. The one on UPF does remind you, though, that
Some authors have criticised the concept of “ultra-processed foods” as poorly defined
The crux of this learning moment for you shouldn’t be about definitions, but the relative “healthiness” of vegan food products.
It’s clear you began with a preference to paint with a broad brush these meat substitute products as “junk food,” and you have the opportunity to recognize they aren’t as obviously unhealthy as you first thought.
Modern plant-sourced diets may incorporate a range of ultra-processed foods (UPF), such as sugar-sweetened beverages, snacks, confectionery, but also the ‘plant-sourced’ sausages, nuggets, and burgers that are produced with ingredients originating from plants and marketed as meat and dairy substitutes.
Thanks for your teaching moment, but take a second to get up to speed and we can talk after that.
Low-effort repost of your specious use of a study with nebulous conclusions for this conversation; I’ll quote the user above:
that category contains “soft drinks, sweet or savoury packaged snacks, confectionery; packaged breads and buns; reconstituted meat products and pre-prepared frozen or shelf-stable dishes.” This gives you no information on Impossible burgers’ impact on cardiovascular disease, it only gives you a trend among people who eat all of the above. I would suspect the reality is Impossible meat contributes to CVD slightly more than straight-up vegetables and significantly less than red meat.
Oh honey, your stealth edit shows that you don’t understand. I’ll explain it to you: the study you keep linking doesn’t differentiate between those foods in that “range of ultra-processed foods (UPF),” so that means data coming from “sugar-sweetened beverages, snacks, confectionery” is getting all mixed in with the data of the “‘plant-sourced’ sausages, nuggets, and burgers,” which unfortunately renders the conclusions of the study rather meaningless when we’re talking about the CVD outcomes of just one of the data sets.
I just told you why the study you linked is invalid for this conversation. Do you want me to quote the comment you just replied to so you can reread it?
Greater numbers of people are choosing plant-based meat substitutes for various reasons, including perceived health benefits.
While leaner cuts of beef can still have a place in a heart-healthy meal plan, consumers may be more willing to overeat plant-based meat substitutes, but their high sodium and saturated fat content may pose health risks.
As an alternative to over-processed vegan foods, clinicians may advise patients to consider leaner cuts of meat and incorporate wholesome vegetarian superfoods, such as nuts, greens, and vegetables, into their diets.
Based on a 100-gram comparison, the Impossible Burger has more favorable stats for protein (17.2 g compared with beef’s 16.8 g), fiber (4.4 g to beef’s 0 g), and iron (3.7 mg to beef’s 2 mg) than traditional beef. It’s also lower in calories with fewer grams of total fat (11.5 g vs beef’s 19.9 g) and saturated fat (5.3 g vs beef’s 7.3 g)
However, the Impossible Burger has almost five times the sodium content as a beef patty (327 mg vs beef’s 66 mg). Pair an Impossible Burger with a bun and condiments, and consumers will be on the fast track to a high-sodium meal.
Vegans need to downvote anyone that disagrees when them is proof their ideas cannot stand scrutiny. They do not relish in a debate of in any capacity. They don’t even have original ideas, it’s the same couple talking points because it’s ideology base. They call themselves converts but won’t accept it’s a religion.
Tbh I kinda agree with you, calling someone a murderer or rapist for eating meat is overboard; however the biggest issue I have is the pretentious and self-righteous attitude that vegans have. Like, cool, you don’t eat meat, good for you! I agree that commercially raised farm animals are often abused, and that even animals raised by small, private farms don’t always get to lead their best lives.^1 At the same time though, you’re not making your cause look good.
Yes, I might honestly be a better person if I stop eating meat, dairy and buying any form of animal product; but I’m also gonna be associated with assholes with overinflated egos. I’m distanced enough from the slaughter that the overinflated ego is more of a turnoff than the slaughtering of animals.
Is that how it should be? No, but that’s how humans usually work. The object perceived to be closer is a higher priority than the object perceived to be further away. Animal slaughter is perceived as being further away than being associated with assholes, so the fear of being associated with assholes is a greater “threat” than the inhumane treatment of animals.
Be a vegan if you want, or don’t. You’re honestly probably a better, healthier person if you’re vegan (though you probably have your head up your ass about it), because your diet and spending habits are less likely to contribute to climate change, animal cruelty, and because you have to be conscious about what you eat, your food is likely healthier.
Just… Don’t be an ass about it, dude.
Instead of accusing people of being “carnists”, talk about a good (totally-not-vegan) dish you had recently. Instead of accusing people of murder, talk about the pros and cons of real leather vs faux leather.^2 Instead of telling people they’re animal rapists, talk about new sources of cow’s milk.
I swear I recently read about a technically vegan blue cheese that won and then got disqualified from a cheese competition because the milk it was made from was technically synthetic cow’s milk that had been derived from fungi or something. Talk about that shit. That is pretty fucking cool. Fungus milk that’s virtually identical to cow’s milk? That’s awesome!
Meat eating and the damage it causes is far off in most people’s rear-view mirrors, and many people don’t know or don’t have time to find ways of getting off the meat highway. They don’t know about alternatives or up-and-coming technologies related to meat substitutes. Being an ass is only going to turn people away; if you really care, then you’ll understand that you have to take people’s hands and take baby steps with them. And no, you can’t get angry when they mess up. You’re helping a baby to walk, if you get angry then they’ll just get angry, demoralized, frustrated with you or themselves, or something else, and you risk them giving up. If you actually care though, then you don’t want them to give up, and that means you have to grit your teeth and bear it when they complain about how something sucks or admit they have a “guilty pleasure” like dairy ice cream.
Some additional notes:
^1 imo meat should only be harvested from animals that have died from age-related causes. “But the meat will be too tough!” Yeah? Hispanic people figured out how to deal with that a long time ago. Make fajitas! I still eat meat anyway though, despite knowing they’re slaughtered and don’t die of old age.
^2 when it comes to leather, my experience is that natural leather lasts a lot longer than faux leather, and faux leather tends to use plastics. Additionally, I’ve heard that while “leather is a byproduct of the meat industry” is mostly a myth, it’s my understanding that there are “ethical” ways of getting leather, e.g. by taking cast-offs that’d normally be trashed, leather harvested from animals that have died from old age; you just have to be very conscious about where you’re buying leather from. I’d be curious if anyone knows about any non-petroleum-based faux or lab-grown leathers. I mean, it’s literally just skin, how hard can it really be to grow that in a lab?
I love being an annoying vegan because it was annoying vegans who made me go vegan. I was once like you, I knew the animal ag industry was fucked, but I still liked eating meat and dairy. Then eventually the cognitive dissonance caught up to me and I realised that enjoying meat and dairy wasn’t a good enough excuse to support a cruel industry that is quite literally destroying the planet.
At least you’re not in denial about what you’re supporting and you’re not spreading misinformation. I’m chill with that, but I think you’re wrong about what’s effective at converting people to veganism.
PS: people make pineapple and cactus leathers nowadays, I’ve heard of a mushroom based one, too. Not sure on how the durability and longevity compares just yet but it seems pretty tough so far. Also not sure on the processes involved and how ‘clean’ they are.
How come you’re so opposed to the concept of, like, self-esteem that you think it’s worse than death? Like, someone having high self esteem is a worse thing in your emotions than something dying. Why is pride worse than death to you?
idk, I’m a meat eater and if it wasn’t for vegans evangelizing I really wouldn’t know how messed up meat production is. We allow some seriously cruel shit to fellow sentient beings, far beyond just killing them, and no one wants to think about it.
You definitely have a point; informing and evangelising are closer than we’d like to admit. Then again, the messenger is often as important as the message - in the case of the vegan debate too many folks choose the moral option rather than the pragmatic one.
As a species, we find it hard to empathise with the death of our own at massive scales, why would we be capable of doing it for organisms we were brought up to consider food?
However, almost all of us are on a massively reduced budget, it’d be a shame if folks shared delicious recipes that can be made cheaply and just so happen to be vegan right?
The next best thing for a non-vegan to do isn’t to switch right away, it’s to start finding vegan things you enjoy more than meat!
Eating a whole foods plant based diet is 30% cheaper
“Oxford University research has today revealed that, in countries such as the US, the UK, Australia and across Western Europe, adopting a vegan, vegetarian, or flexitarian diet could slash your food bill by up to one-third.”
“The study, which compared the cost of seven sustainable diets to the current typical diet in 150 countries, using food prices from the World Bank’s International Comparison Program, was published in The Lancet Planetary Health.”
This is ironic because the argument concedes vegan ideology, it’s just attacks them for not doing more. At this point the carnists are not really arguing, they’re negotiating terms of surrender.
Most meat consumers already suspect vegans are right. We get aggravated because we’d rather ignore that question. And a vegan threatens to force the issue, even in our own mind. If you’ve ever wondered why vegans inspire automatic hostility, ridicule, and derision it’s because they threaten a carnists identity as a good person just by existing.
Nope. Vegans are fine. Veganist like you are religious nut jobs. You’ve created narratives and then act like anyone who doesn’t agree with you is the bad guy. Not unlike the far right or any other extremist group.
That feeling of your existence being a threat is the same feeling any other authoritarian feels.
I’m sure you perceive it that way, as you already said you perceive being a threat. You appear to take pride in it.
Couldn’t be less threatened by you. Your abstinence reduces price competition for meat products. You are restricting yourself such that it benefits me.
The real threat in this regard are the boomers who eat more meat products than other generations.
I feel I should donate a quarter head of beef to a local food pantry in your name as tribute and to show there are no ill feelings. At least from me. I doubt you feel the same towards me.
“I’m going to pay a killer to give me a corpse in your name just to spite you, but I’m going to pretend I’m doing you a favour even though I hate it. Because I’m NOT an asshole. Doing people fake favours they don’t want is what non-assholes do.”
I came up with an idea recently so I just have to ask: are you a false flag? Your behavior doesn’t serve to make anyone more open to your position. In fact, it serves the exact opposite purpose. So, really, are you a false flag trying to make people less receptive to veganism as a whole or what?
As someone who was successfully converted to veganism I’m not going to take your shitty cow raping, carnist ass, stanky opinions on how to convert people. Go on, chuck a few slices of bacon in the pan for me.
I will. I plan on enjoying it. I hope you recognize that I’m doing this at your behest, equivalent to you eating the meat.
Also, have you ever considered that some people know where their meat comes from and know that it’s not being kept in horrible conditions? I don’t really care that it’s dying to feed me. Plants die to feed me too.
I’m not going to get into the environmental aspect as I know that veganism is better for the environment, but just shifting away from factory farmed red meat would be a huge positive change and then you don’t even piss off the majority of the population (that see you as a self-righteous shithead) :)
Obviously I’d prefer it if you didn’t eat animals but I’m actually chill with just being more mindful about what you support. If you’re going out of your way to try and minimise the harm you’re doing then that’s better than most people.
And at least you recognise the environmental harm. The only thing that really annoys me is people lying about these things.
There’s this great game on the internet called Half Earth Socialism. The idea is the earth has converted to a single socialist government, and you get to be president of Earth for life. Can you save the earth from climate change without losing popular support and being coup’ed?
A lot of people say they failed this game because it’s too hard. But I didn’t, I won on the first try. One of the biggest things I did in the game was make meat eating illegal. It was a really hard policy to push and I lost a lot of support with my constituents, I nearly got ousted. But then pollution started going down, temperature slowed its rise, extinction went down, biodiversity went up, and everyone was happier. Within a few years my approval rating was back up and then some. I also banned cars and it was the same effect.
Let me ask you this: where do you stand on shearing sheep?
EDIT: Since the user chose to ignore my question, I’ll just explain my reasoning. Many vegans consider the shearing of sheep and using of wool to be cruel, with some having ‘rape’ and ‘molestation’ narratives like those being addressed in this meme and active in this thread. Despite this, modern sheep require sheering for their health, and will become matted, heavy and overheated otherwise.
Yes, they did. Either way, however, not shearing domestic sheep is harmful to them, and I’ve personally seen the molestation “argument” appear in response to such a statement in the past.
Someone who’s more informed might respond with something about the selective breeding. Plenty will still respond with the same energy already seen within this thread.
There’s nothing wrong with shearing sheep if there’s no exploitation occurring. The problem is when you add a profit motive to keep breeding animals designed with their exploitation in mind.
However, I’m going to go out on limb here, and say there probably aren’t many sheep in the care of vegans except on animal sanctuaries. The important thing is to stop buying wool and funding animal exploitation.
I didn’t choose to ignore anything. I just have a life outside of being an annoying vegan.
You already knew what I was going to say, though. I’m personally against wool products because they breed sheep specifically to grow unhealthy amounts of wool and once the few good coats they have in them are gone they send them off to be killed for food anyway.
Sheep can also be mistreated during the shearing process, and since shearers are often paid per sheep they’re incentivised to rush through them.
I’m not going to use the word rape here since I don’t think it applies.
I think one should only be allowed to shear sheep if they’re either not breeding their sheep, or breeding them to produce more manageable coats like in the wild. Ideally our sheep population would be much lower and the animals would naturally be healthy. So people should only be allowed to extract labour value from their sheep if they’re working to reduce exploitation.
I, too, kill people to spite other people I don’t like. One time a woman cut me off in traffic, so I murdered my girlfriend and buried her in the backyard to piss that driver off
I’m not a vegan (yet) but I have a lot of respect for those who are. I would love to see some developments in cruelty-free lab grown meat and just hope it won’t be full of shit.
It worked for christianity, or any religion fir that matter. “You’re a filthy heathen and you’re not allowed the privileges of a normal human if you don’t pretend to believe in my particular set of fairytales”
It worked on me. I went vegan because I was ashamed of eating meat. If you’re not a vegan then I don’t think you have any perspective on what’s effective at getting people to go vegan.
so if i and enough other people think your a fool and deride you long enough because you got peer pressured and bullied into making your dietary decisions youll switch back to eating meat ?
Ok. We’re on the prairie. There’s literally nothing here to eat but bison, though somehow you’ve got it into your head that you can eat grass. Fine, we’ll let you try for a bit until you come to your senses. Two weeks later your digestion is fucked, you’re lethargic, and we have to carry you.
You, MindTraveller, have just become a burden to the whole group, lowering all of our chances of survival, all over some so-called “principle”. I know of gods, I know of spirits, if your principles are anything like that then certainly they must be evil. Maybe shaming won’t help to drive them out, we can try other rites, but if nothing helps then we will have to leave you behind.
Can’t help but notice the sudden influx of downvotes for any comment that isn’t making the claim that all farmers fuck cows. It’s almost like some kind of brigade.
I already apologized to the mods here. I’ve been watching the vote counters fluctuate. I’m really sorry the nice people from shitpost are having to deal with this I just wanted a funny post.
the post was in the top10 of “active” in /all, so everyone gets a vote, and it IS a topic where emotions tend to run high, regardless of stance to the topic, so thats to be expected
>A sudden, sharp influx of users presenting behavior and opinions leaning in a specific direction that was previously much less represented
>“DUrR yoU jUSt DoNT LikE iT”
I saw enough r/nonewnornal brigades back in 2020 to have an idea. A harshly different upvote/downvote ratio along opinion lines between the post itself and the comments is a very good indicator.
Saw plenty of apologist/sockpuppet comments like yours back then, too. May have seen this one almost ver batim, in fact.
Add comment