plspls_pls_ stop calling each other fascists or astroturfers unless you have a thorough understanding of the uncommitted movement and what u.s. primaries are. there is so much blatant misunderstanding and misinfo going on it’s bad.
edit: if any loser dares call for an uncommitted vote in the general election? i will kick them in the balls (gender neutral) (in minecraft)
AN UNCOMMITTED MOVEMENT WILL NOT BE CALLED FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION, REGARDLESS OF THE RESULT OF THE PRIMARY.
First off, it better not. If you think “Genocide Joe” is bad for palestine, try “Bloodbath drumpf”… I mean, maybe it is better to die violently and fast than slowly? But either way, whatever the pro-palestine movement is after, the democrats are their best choice, and by far. The alternative not only got stronger ties with the netanyahu government, but also a much lower overall IQ, zero consideration for legislation, international agreements, humanitarian matters, and democracy in general (which they have literally confused with the opposition party, for decades by now). You might not like biden, but from a humanitarian PoV, he is orders of magnitude better than anyone the GoP might select (and especially more so if it is drumpf).
Second off, I get that people are trying to “send a message”, but if it changes nothing aside from vanity numbers, it will have absolutely zero impact. The impact was “voting for Bernie”, and that is about 8 years too late now.
You may end up confronted with your ball-kicking obligation, especially if the GOP is consistent taking all opportunities to add more disinformation to the season. I’d guess whether such a disinformation program was successful might make the difference between a thousand scattered uncommitted write-in votes across the nation or 100,000 localized in battleground states.
The 2016 election remains fresh in my mind, in which Trump was so obviously a monster that we expected a landslide by Clinton. Yet somehow while everyone knew Trump was dangerous enough hated Clinton enough to take that risk that he won by the Electoral College while losing the popular vote, and boy, the US is jolly sorry we let that happen, but not sorry enough to change it, even though we were pretty jolly sorry for letting George W. Bush steal the election from Gore in 2000, via a SCOTUS ruling that even warns don’t use this to set future precedents ( NARRATOR:Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000) has been used to set precedent or justify opinions in later SCOTUS rulings. )
US voters are imbiciles. They’re ignorant. They can’t operate their voting materials correctly. They get confused and suppressed. And these factors can sometimes be used to change the course of elections.
In 2024, our election is about one thing:
Vote RED if you are in favor of dissolving the government as it stands and erecting a one-party autocracy in which the Republican party rules the people of the US. (Elections will be neutered so they’re meaningless), as per Project 2025 by the Heritage Foundation. If autocracy is your jam, vote in Republicans for office. (All Republicans, no matter how they campaign, are down with P’25, or will be if ever they are compelled to act to serve it.)
Vote BLUE if you are against the dissolution of democracy (rather, our minimal democratic features). If you want to hold back the Republican autocracy for a few more years, vote for democrats in office (to vote against the Republican). That’s where the US is.
Vote any other way to make no statement whatsoever. Any third-party vote, any write in an election where Republicans are running is a vote not to stop the Republican from taking office.
That’s where we are in the US. It’s our only choice. Trump may not invade Poland and France, but he will quit NATO, and he will start interning non-whites and sending ICE to lock people up in detention centers. Some people think it won’t be as bad as the German Reich. I think Germany is going to be holding the US’ beer.
It’s madness, but we really have no choice but to put Democrats in office. In the meantime, regarding the genocide in Palestine, by all means crab at your representatives and senators (state and US). Block traffic. Blow up pipelines. Tell young people the risks of joining military service. (Check your counter-recruitment groups for talking points and scary stories.) Join your local mutual aid organization. Raise all kinds of Hell.
But the election, despite what it is supposed to be, is not where members of the public gets to express itself…except for the one issue of whether or not we let the Republican party take over the US permanently.
So you have no choice for this election. It’s sad, but it seems to be what it is. But what then?
If Biden is elected again, what will happen next term? You hope trump will die or finally end in prison? How long will you keep fascism at bay like this? How is it that there is half a year left before the election and you’re already in this dire situation?
If you’re going to cast a protest vote during the presidential election, the primaries is the time to do it. You’re only voting for the presidential candidate that will represent your political party, so there’s less risk of getting someone you won’t like.
I don’t know if it’s official yet, but Donald Trump will almost certainly be the Republican nominee for the election this November. The same can be said for Biden as the Democratic Nominee, as I don’t know if an incumbent president has ever lost their party’s nomination. So while we will nearly certainly have to pick between an old man with bombs and an old man with bombs who wants to tear down the government and rebuild it with himself at the helm, you can still show your disapproval at the ballots.
Trying to proofread this and it sounds like a fucking Trainwreck. I don’t know if that’s my fault or the government’s.
It’s a situation that sucks. Yes. The US is on the verge of falling apart. Paths of least resistance are towards either civil war or an autocratic state that will try to preserve popular loyalty by targeting marginalized groups. Fascists doing genocide.
Regarding your question How long will you keep fascism at bay like this? the answer is as long as we have to.
It’s not a hopeless cause. The Republican party is crumbling from within, is bleeding money and loyalists. The MAGA coalition is so focused on doing what Trump wants that it’s ignoring down-ballot elections. Then there are numerous efforts to interfere with or obstruct Republican efforts to pass hateful laws, even while we can’t really depend on the courts since so many benches have been filled with MAGA loyalists. But the failure of the courts to be either impartial or fair, favoring tough on crime justice over rehabilitation is an old one. But the Democratic party might just be able to outlast the Republican party, which will end with a second premature coup d’etat.
One of the advantages we have is the ubiquity of phone cameras and internet, which means the public gets to see more of what happens on the ground. This is impacting the situation in Palestine as well, as news is no longer controlled by a couple of agencies, but has plenty of independent leaks. I’m sure this informs the movements of the White House towards curbing Netanyahu and the IDF, supplying Gaza and moving towards a Palestinian state and an international coalition team to enforce terms. When gross images of atrocity go viral, whether that’s IDF prisoners being mistreated, or people getting gunned down by US law enforcement, it is a really bad look when officials ignore or dismiss such incidents.
That said, all the myths that allowed for two far-right political parties in the US to control state and federal governments have been debunked while their plutocratic overlords (campaign financial contributors) still are pushing for a neo-feudal state, and the recinding of civil rights. It mirrors the situation during the Great Depression, for which FDR’s New Deal was a stopgap and industrialists and Hoover were looking at Mussolini and Italy in admiration and envy. (All that got interrupted by WWII and the cold war).
So I can say with confidence I have no idea what will happen next, but doing anything to give the US to the Republicans or to incite civil war would make shit a lot worse for the common American, with very little chance we’d get any public-serving progress out of the outcome for a century or two.
So the first step is recognizing the degree to which the US has been destabilized and how much civil rights have been stripped from the public, despite what kids are being taught in public schools.
thorough understanding of the uncommitted movement and what u.s. primaries are. there is so much blatant misunderstanding and misinfo going on it’s bad.
yeah I could see this EXCEPT the rhetoric used isn’t likely to be forgotten - labeling him Genocide Joe is just gonna evaporate huh?
This movement is bullshit FUD sprayed right out of the GOP, believe it at your peril. And note that these same fuckwits always attack Biden, but never seem to go after trump, even tho ‘it’s just the primaries bro’.
the incumbent always sweeps in the primary. please fReaking learn to read and digest the post like the rest of us before you type your hate comment dawg please please please 🙏 😭
i could see this except…
i don’t stand by the genocide joe nickname. i do stand by those who do what they can to stop children from starving.
this movement is bullshit FUD
this “bullshit” is doing the bare minimum to get a fucking genocide to end. call it a mistake, fine, call it a miscalculation, fine. stop calling it fascism, FUD, or astroturfing and learn to think for just a half a second that someone might have empathy for human suffering.
Willing to bet money that nobody not any measurable amount, is flipping from Biden to trump over his Palestine stance. They are just not going to vote at most or vote PSL or Green
i know you probably hear this a lot, but i encourage you not to do so. until we have ranked choice voting, voting for the democrat candidate in the general will always be a needed form of harm reduction, especially if you live in a swing state.
others are probably better at expressing this than i, so i’ll leave it at that. :)
They’re doing an awful job of harm reduction and I’m not waiting for fundamental systemic changes to the country’s election process to withhold support from the party that’s rug pulled me for 24 years.
The best time to stop supporting the democrats and put my energy elsewhere was 2000, the second best time is now.
I will also never vote for Joe Biden for any position again.
No worries. You’re always welcome on the “democrats fuck off” side. There’s definitely somewhere here with your politics and idea of appropriate direct action.
don’t get me wrong, democrats can eat dirt the majority of the time 😭 bunch of war criminals and capitalist scum. but in the end, after doing organizing and grassroots stuff, when it comes down to the final say, i personally try to make the choice that will be the most pragmatically beneficial (or least harmful, as it tends to be) to my neighbors.
i have heard this argument a couple times and honestly haven’t been swayed by it. let me know if i’ve been hearing the argument from the wrong sources but it’s such a tough position to defend when i know for a fact that each vote i make can have a direct influence on the livelihood of my neighbors.
harm reduction as a specific thing. The best example of it is needle exchanges and safe injection rooms for addicts. you recognize that the bad thing is happening, and you do what you can to mitigate the harm that comes from the bad thing. The bad thing is bad people being in power. what you can do to mitigate that is engaging in mutual aid and community organizing around issues that are affecting you locally. voting for a Democrat or Republican won’t stop the bad things from happening. The Democrats have brought us to the point where Trump is seen as reasonable by half the electorate. The Democrats have shared power with the Republicans for the past hundred years as fascism has taken over the government. voting for them doesn’t reduce the harm that they cause.
edit
voting for Democrats is like giving out free Suboxone and saying at least it’s not heroin. That’s not harm reduction. harm reduction is recognizing that the addicts are going to use the substance of their choice and making that as safe as possible.
harm reduction [is] a specific thing. The best example of it is needle exchanges and safe injection rooms for addicts. you recognize that the bad thing is happening, and you do what you can to mitigate the harm that comes from the bad thing. The bad thing is bad people being in power.
these first sentences of yours follow perfectly into the following thesis:
“What you can do to mitigate that is engaging in mutual aid and community organizing, and when the opportunity to do that ends, to also vote for the candidate which does the least harm.”
There is room to hold both truths at once. If Trump had not won in 2016, the supreme court would have an entirely different makeup, we’d still have Roe v Wade, and there would be fewer women and doctors fearing legal persecution for taking medically necessary action in cases like ectopic pregnancy.. You recognize that someone bad was going to get elected in 2016, but only one of those rolled back basic women’s rights. Harm reduction. And that’s just one example of many. There is nothing about voting a handful of times a year that precludes you from also also organizing and participating in mutual aid.
The candidate that does the least harm would probably be Cornell West or Jill Stein. voting for the senator who put in place the conditions for roe v Wade to be turned over, the senator who confirmed some of those very same justices, to be president does not reduce harm. if you won’t take it from me maybe it’ll take it from this guy
This kind of post is exactly how Trump is going to be elected to the Supreme Court, so he can grant himself immunity. You should be ashamed of yourself.
If somebody commits to it in the primary, then their mind is already made up. It sounds like you’re putting the cart before the horse here. People are voting uncommitted because of how they feel about Biden; their feelings about Biden aren’t changing because they vote uncommitted.
This is actually good for Biden, because he can check the pulse of the electorate going into the general election. Polling data, as we know by now, is notoriously unreliable. This is a way to get a message to Biden about what’s important to his voter base. Without this information, people might not show up to vote, and he might have no idea why.
And here I was thinking the uncommited movement meant something might be done. If you are still calling for Biden, then why even bother voting uncommitted? Why pretend to dissent if you’ll fall in line when it matters?
There’s no message being sent if there’s no real threat behind the message or else the message isn’t being received if the Biden administration doesn’t change their stance.
Seems like the message has made its way through the news and social media. Just because Biden hasn’t changed his stance completely doesn’t mean the message isn’t being received.
The message is he’ll lose the election if he doesn’t change his stance. So if he has received it and chose to ignore it then why is he running. Either he doesn’t believe the threat or he doesn’t want to win.
No that’s not the message, the message is if he doesn’t listen to the people he won’t win the election. It’s a scary precedent to set that if the Democratic party doesn’t listen to +70% of it’s people and he still gets elected simply because the other side is worse when would they listen to their voters? The other side is always worse at least since I’ve been following politics(since Bill Clinton). They always use that to excuse their inaction because they think voters will be too afraid of the opposition to question it. This is a clear message and for the reason to stop a genocide. If now is not a time to take a stand idk when will be.
Because the path to change course can only come from the democratic party in this duopoly. The Republican party will only ever get more fascist, and voting Republican will only accelerate towards fascism. There is at least a chance for change within the democratic party. At the national, voting for the least worse option (Biden), is harm reduction. And that is still important, regardless how broken this joke of a democracy is.
Organization and civil unrest can still push Biden to the left on issues even after the election, that’s not possible under trump. It’s important to vote in the national, but remember voting in your local elections for candidates is also super important and your vote goes a lot further.
Political change comes from the people. Civil rights didn’t come from voting, nor did worker’s rights. If voting changes nothing, then it is useless to vote, simple as that. Organizing and forcing the changes people want is how you get what you want when your leaders don’t listen.
I agree that more than voting is necessary and voting is the bare minimum. But it’s still important to vote nonetheless. Do you know of any resources to help people to organize?
I’m talking about the National, not the Primary. Third party doesn’t work in a duopoly created by a FPTP voting system, that’s the unfortunate reality. Voting Democrat is absolutely harm reduction.
In America, we have a duopoly of the Republican party and Democratic party. Our FPTP voting system creates a two-party system and prevents any challenge to the two parties due to the spoiler effect. This is by design, both parties serve the capitalist class.
A Republican presidency is significantly more harmful to everyone (other than capitalists) than a Democratic presidency. The Republican party continues to and will only get more fascist. The Democratic party inches towards fascism due to the ratchet effect. Voting Democrat is harm reduction as it delays more fascist policies. This is because Democratic administrations are less harmful than Republican ones.
This is to reduce future harm, not reverse current harmful policies and systemic injustices. That kind of harm reduction requires Organization. Which is why it’s important to do more than just vote. That’s why it’s critical to participate in awareness, organization, and action. Especially in local politics. All of which is easier to do under democratic presidency, because their policies are less fascist.
If you think I support or like the democratic party, you’re absolutely wrong. I just recognize it’s better to have them in power than to have Republicans in Power. Voter apathy only helps Republicans and the ruling class.
It’s so unfathomable to me to think you cannot send a message by having an opinion, only by using an indirect possible half message via an entirely different channel used for other things? It’s crazy talking to think political officers don’t understand or know what people ask for, but they will understand this? It’s coming from ignorance or do people actually not understand?
It is clear within the US that the uncommitted movement is grossly misunderstood outside of the people who care to engage with anti-genocide protest efforts. Because the main stream media did not cover it effectively up to the primary election and barely covered it after.
It is also clear that people from other countries do not understand the US primary system at all.
For Democrats, voter turn out is what matters. And that the “uncommitted” vote does not beat Biden. The uncommitted vote will not beat Biden since no news orgs covered it well so few know about it unless previously involved in anti-genocide efforts. Only Democrats can vote in the US Democrat primary, so high primary turnout shows how many democrats are willing to vote for Biden come election AND the uncommitted vote shows an easy tally of how many people were moved enough to discover the uncommitted vote movement and take part to support ending the genocide of the Palestinians.
If you see actual astroturfing, fascists-in-leftist-clothing calling for an uncommitted vote in the general, tell them to “fuck off tankie”.
In the US general election there will be no “uncommitted” option, showing that they are out-of-state fascists. Tell them to eat shit loudly and do not engage further with the fascies.
The US general election is serious as the republican challenger is the fascist bitch who tried to overthrow the government. But the genocide of the Palestinians is also serious, they’re actually dying by the thousands and after you die you’re dead it’s donezo, and anyone should be able to realize that that’s horrendous
God what the fuck is this comment. Donezo? Can you not make a genocide into tryin to be cute or whatever tf this is
Fuck Biden. Committed leftists / socialists / communists are not gonna hand wring about one president over another. I haven’t voted since Obama 2012, no plans to start anytime soon. Electoralism will not save us and I’m tired of hearing the lesser of two evils is the solution for the last, idunno 50 years? Unless a candidate were to stop all weapon sales to Israel (never gonna happen), it’s not worth all this song and dance bullshit
Aka, if the electoral system is rigged, just give up. There is no alternative. Unless of course you find yourself within a nation with a somewhat browner skin color. Then expect liberation and democratization by way of the bomb.
If you don’t vote, I don’t care, I say donezo on the reg and will say it again. Doesn’t change that Palestinians are dying by the thousands
Giving up is worthless, especially when one evil will ensure everyone in the LGBTQ+ sphere will die at some point in the near future and one won’t. Look inside yourself from an ethical perspective - if you can make some positive change, do it. Especially if it costs you nothing but gets trans people everything
You’re saying this to a gay guy who works around trumpers in a factory.
Trump being president doesn’t mean the gays will be rounded up into camps or something. I hate when people play this card that we’re all gonna get fucking murdered and it’s my fault for not voting blue, like what? It’s apparent that it’s playing on emotions to use LGBT people as some weird guilt trip and it’s honestly pretty gross. I can take care of myself and my partner and our home just fine thanks. And I feel no differently safety wise whether it’s a Republican or Democrat in office.
Trans people are at risk right now, states that ban transitioning will kill them. Gay people were at risk years ago but decades of voting for politicians that support peoples’ rights have allowed you to live and be out now. I am glad you have the rights you deserve and will not lose them in a year, but trans people are losing rights they deserve now. Not to mention abortion rights have been lost that are deserved well.
But voting got justices in place to enact rulings that decriminalized sodomy in 2003. Literally it was illegal to be gay in a bunch of states prior to 2003. Just as not voting let Trump install justices that removed abortion access.
Your right to a same-sex marriage (2015 ruling, very recent, only 36/50 states allowed same-sex marriage prior to that ruling and of course after 2003) and even being with someone of the same-sex (2003 ruling) are both Supreme Court rulings that can easily be repealed just as Roe v Wade was. I want everyone’s right to love who they want to be enshrined in the constitution, but until it is same-sex relationships are somewhat vulnerable. Voting and political action are the only way to enable your rights to remain forever. And voting is ez pz you just tick a few boxes for the person that doesn’t want to kill trans people.
You are correct; your life will continue whether or not you vote. But the quality of life is greatly impacted by the will of the people, which is gauged through voting. And the quality of life of other groups (people transitioning) are in danger right now
There’s a thing where previously oppressed minorities get their rights, and then they start to forget that there are other oppressed minorities that still need their rights.
For example, Irish people were often oppressed a century ago in the US, but they’re just more white guys. That why Bill O’Reilly could go on Fox News in the early 2000s and say “my Irish ancestors pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, why can’t black people?”
The point isn’t that the labor movement you are exposed to supports you now.
The point is that the labor movement can take off their union patches and bide time, go underground and find ways to continue fighting fascism.
You can’t go back in the closet. A more cowardly version of you can, but the version you see yourself as, the tough guy, he dies if fascism takes hold.
Uncritical identitarian ideologues are the bane of all movements. You’re committed to the identity of being a leftist/socialist/communist rather than the ideology, just like the Christian fascists that explicitly ignore every good idea in the Bible in favor of the worst ideas.
Over time, many supposed Marxists have decided to ignore the best principles and goals outlined by the man himself. You instead favor what “works” to build a “committed” movement. Unfortunately, “committed” means committed to the identity, while things only “work” if they ensure the group’s existence.
Accomplishing the stated goals of the group doesn’t matter so long as it has a stable niche. It basically works by evolutionary logic, with accuracy and ethics only mattering if it helps the group survive. It becomes cultish, often explicitly so if there is centralized power.
The parallels between Christianity and Marxism become more clear with how they reference the texts written by their great leaders selectively, highlighting whatever fits their current agenda. The most counterintuitive part is that we don’t think about ideas in the way that they actually behave, instead assuming they serve us.
People usually believe their own shit, but produce outcomes that look like sociopathic calculus. Liberals genuinely believe what they say about liberalism. Capitalists genuinely believe most of their nonsense arguments. It doesn’t matter that social programs create stability, or that regulations often benefit the unwilling companies in the long run. The saying “we often attribute stupidity to malice” is inaccurate. We really attribute evolution to intelligence.
People with nonsense ideologies almost never disbelieve everything they say. Fascist leaders buy most of their own bullshit. You believe in your own flawed logic. I probably believe bullshit about something, so I keep an open mind.
Only Democrats can vote in the US Democrat primary,
This is not true. There are multiple states that allow voting in the primary of a party to which you are not registered. You just can’t vote in both primaries.
🤓🤓🤓 But in more seriousness, it is true for the majority - ok some states let independents vote in one party’s primary but they have to request it and it’s harder and I’m not gonna add that addendum to a long ass diatribe
The uncommitted movement will, in fact, be called for the general election - by assholes who just want Biden to lose.
You can ignore them. But they will be there. And the mouth noises they make will be based on sincere and reasonable criticism.
The thing about objecting ‘we can’t do [blank] because conservatives will abuse it in bad faith’ is, conservatives will absofuckinglutely abuse [blank] in bad faith. Probably whether or not we do it. That part of the objection is real - even if we should still do [blank]. We can only do [blank] in spite of them.
probably true, sadly. but it won’t be the same people group who is calling for it now.
that’s literally all i care about now with this post is we need to stop calling people who are using their civic rights to speak against genocide fascist.
tell them their strategy will backfire, fine, tell them it’s a miscalculation, fine. but don’t just plaster them with the fascism tag. it makes me sick how people trying to do the right thing are getting harrassed.
Forgive me if, when presented with the trolley problem and the person on track b would die anyways if I did not pull the lever, if I pulled that lever instead of ignoring everything and/or jumping off a cliff. The political situation is bleak here, and the machine is designed to keep Americans placated, disenfranchised, and generally apathetic. We don’t have coalition voting. We don’t have ranked choice, and it’s even banned in certain states! If there’s a proper alternative to Biden in this country, that information has to be disseminated to hundreds of millions and convince them to change their vote. It’s possible that someone could come along but they’d have to work fast I sure as hell don’t see anyone with that kind of rallying power. Do you have any suggestions on who I should vote for?.. Because my choice is first and foremost in the interest of overall harm reduction in whatever practical terms that can actually be accomplished in this country.
Declining to vote in this system is, effectively, silently endorsing whoever gets in; it signals that you’re ok with everything, or at least it gets interpreted that way by politicians 100x more than any sort of “protest” effect you think not voting will achieve. Literally if you don’t vote for a politician why should they care what the fuck you think? One party doesn’t even want us voting at all because it means they can give less of a fuck about us! Frankly, I don’t want to see the orange man in office again, and he will be worse than even self-professed Zionist Joe on matters pertaining to the rest of the world. Again, I’m open to an alternative if you can give me one that’s not sticking my head in the sand or some fetishistic “revolution” way too many people pine for without having a single ounce of solidarity in their real lives.
So many years I’ve heard Americans complain, rightly so, about the duopoly farming your insecurities for profits. Each cycle the duopoly gets worse and worse. Again we’re at a point where it seems they can’t stoop any lower, and again most seemingly progressive Americans suddenly become incredibly pragmatist, excusing genocide, destruction of the environment, war in Europe, cold war 2.0, because “the alternative is worse”. Fuck that from the rest of the world that has to live under your megalomanic geriatric child killing leaders. You need to find a solution, and voting for the lesser evil just ain’t it, because it is already so incredible destructive and outright barbarian. Make a third way, engage Trump voters on their home turf, make a revolution, I don’t care, just leave us the fuck alone. Thank you.
If it wasn’t for the overpowered military industrial complex and veto in the security council, I’m pretty sure we’d have a no fly zone and democratic transition in the US by now.
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