Original Fallout lead Tim Cain loves the new show, but remains baffled by how 'destructive' fans can act toward 'people who are trying to create things'

Cain appreciated the performances and storytelling, but singled out how the show nailed the Fallout “vibe” as its biggest achievement. “I was just looking at all the props,” he said of one scene. “I realized after a few minutes went by that I had not followed the dialogue at all, because I was so engrossed by it visually.”

On a more sour note, Cain took time to address the way fans of the series can behave poorly online, particularly regarding any perceived rivalry between Fallout entries developed by Bethesda (3, 4, and 76), and those from Interplay, Black Isle, and Obsidian (1, 2, and New Vegas). Cain spoke positively of Todd Howard, and said that “Some of the stuff you [series fans] say online is so off.” See also: the debate about whether the show somehow overrode or ignored the events of those non-Bethesda games, which has since been denied by a senior developer at the studio.

ShaunaTheDead, (edited )

I read a review that said the show was "too woke". I haven't seen anything that's woke except that a non-binary character exists and is referred to as "them", and the shopkeepers in Filly seem to be lesbians but it's not explicitly stated. It's annoying seeing the word "woke" but it's also kind of nice that it's easy to spot the dipshits. Anyone using the word "woke" probably sucks big time.

preach224,

i’m pretty sure the subtext of “woke” is “there are women and non-white people here”

same with “dei,” i suppose - all goes back to not liking women and poc 🙃

T156,

i’m pretty sure the subtext of “woke” is “there are women and non-white people here”

Or that the women in it aren’t explicitly tailored to their tastes. There’s a post going around some places about someone trying to “correct” the image of one of the characters to make them less “woke” (they were wearing a baggy jumpsuit). The resulting character’s back-end looks like it’s been plastiform sealed.

preach224,

i had forgotten all about Alloy and…was it Lara Croft?…and people “correcting” their appearances, good point!

VoterFrog,

I’m guessing this is it. The setting is a 1950’s culture but without the racism and sexism that were rampant at the time. Women and POC holding significant positions in the corporate world, which never would’ve happened in the actual 1950s. It is a fictional world, of course. People seem to forget that.

beardown,

Which doesn’t really make sense given how jingoistic and rabidly anticommunist the pre war 1950s United States is depicted as being.

Why would such a country ever end racial segregation, let alone permit LGBT acceptance? That would require a massive cultural shift, that is worth at least an entire episode of its own. Without such an explanation it just doesn’t really make sense

The show is fake and made up, and so are the games, obviously. But the racial and sexual acceptance depicted doesn’t really make sense. Obviously there’s no problem in depicted characters that aren’t cishet white men. But why would such characters ever be treated as equal in such a fascist depiction of the United States?

Iapar,

Sounds like “woke” is a compliment then. Better then to be asleep and have no clue about what’s going on.

Renacles,

Woke might as well be a compliment at this point, anything being called woke just tells me it might be good.

funkless_eck,

It’s amazing to me that “lesbians? owning a shop? impossible!” is a thought that people have. There are lesbians on my street, at my job, and at my Sunday evening class.

I myself am bisexual. It’s just like… we exist man. And if a bomb went off in my city, I am far enough away to survive the blast. So now you’ve got a bisexual guy in the nuclear winter. OoOo so woke.

Duamerthrax,

I thought they were suppose to open Taco stands. I WAS PROMISED TACOS!

Son_of_dad,

If you show even the existence of a non binary character, they will call you woke. It’s more of a label about them then it is about three thing they’re criticizing.

slingstone,

I wish I had seen your comment earlier. You said it better than I did just now.

slingstone,

I haven’t watched the show, but reading your comment about the shopkeepers, the “problem” appears to be that they MAY be lesbians and they exist. That existence and possibility might be a trigger is sad to me. The hateful folks say it’s about homosexuality being shoved in their face, but, really, it’s a total rejection at the heart of their beliefs. It’s why when activists talk about the dangers of this bigotry, we ought to listen, because the existence or mere possibility of gay people being a problem for some people is only a short step away from the solution for those people being elimination.

Duamerthrax,

I’d like to see those Fallout players sit down and try Arcanum if they think the show is “woke”.

fidodo,

Woke just means acknowledging that people you don’t personally like exist

Saledovil,

“Woke” used to mean “Aware of systemic social issues”, but has been co-opted by the right to mean “Anything we don’t like”. So, anybody who unironically uses it in the new context is not worth taking seriously. To tell them apart, try asking them how they define “woke”.

Zozano,

I saw some people complaining about Cooper’s daughter being bi-racial lol.

Did they even play the game?

chrischryse,

The people saying it’s woke clearly haven’t played fallout 3 which had gay couples lol

RememberTheApollo_,

There are no haters like fans.

“They changed it too much! This sucks! It’s nothing like the (books, characters, game, storyline) we love!”

“This sucks. It’s just a retread. They didn’t do anything new, or was all fan service.”

Black_Gulaman,
@Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I love how accurate this is.

Reinvent!

No you reinvented too much!

No we liked what you did before but now you retracted it, and it has an off vibe now!

Boycott!

The series is failing.

The studios are going bankrupt because they ignored what we want!

Why haven’t anyone else adopted a game/book we love?

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Go watch his video on YouTube, he saw the first 2 episodes, not the entire thing.

natural_motions,

Finished the first season and it was really good. There’s very, very little to complain about. If dingdongs manufacture some stupid nonsense about it being “woke” or w/e to get it canceled it would be pretty tragic.

beardown,

They erased the NCR from existence and had contrived plot and cringe dialogue.

The diversity was a strength, though I’m not sure why the Pre-War United States was depicted as being highly jingoistic yet not racially segregated - which the United States was until 1964

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Anyone saying the show recons 1, 2 and NV from the lore must not know a damn thing about 1, 2, and NV not to notice all the things referencing events and places from those games.

setsneedtofeed, (edited )
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t see many people saying that. I see more people expressing disappointment in the apparently underwhelming and abrupt demise of the NCR, which for all practical purposes resets the west coast to a lawless Fallout 1 type state.

I’m not sure where I stand on that, because I could see the unraveling of the NCR as being interesting if expanded upon, but the point is that it is a reasonable opinion to hold. This Tim Cain video isn’t saying people shouldn’t criticize things or that they are unreasonable for not enjoying things. He’s saying that regardless of the merits of a production, you shouldn’t level personal attacks and moral judgements on creators just because you don’t personally like what they made.

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

That is a fair point and one I share; though I admit my bias. The NCR was always my favorite of the factions (excluding myself through Yes Man in NV) and it just seemed kinda fucked up with what they did to them. Not so much that they basically deleted them, but that they did it off-screen. I hope that future seasons explore that instead of using it as an excuse to not feature the NCR ever again.

Eggyhead,

If you want a show to be more like the game, play the game. If you want it to be more like the book, read the book. Let the show be a show and try to appreciate it as a show.

SupraMario,

Yup, this is like the Cowboy Bebop live action. Fans wanted something, got something and then bitched that it wasn’t exactly like the anime.

Eggyhead,

I really liked the live action show. Like with One Piece it actually piqued my interest in the anime.

SupraMario,

I loved the anime, but also really enjoyed the live action. I’ve never seen either of the one piece shows but hopefully the live action doesn’t suffer the same fate as the live action cowboy bebop.

thedirtyknapkin,

hmmm idk, i disliked the live action because of the acting and writing on cowboy bebop. i also don’t think three was any reason to make that live action. it felt like a soulles cash grab.

compare that to say the one piece live action, or the last of us series, or even twisted metal. those were all shows that adapted things well while also changing a lot. it’s fine to adapt things to a be medium and tell your own story, just don’t expect a free pass if that story you tell is worse than the material you were given. like the Witcher, for example. that shouldn’t have even been that hard. it wasn’t actually a video game adaptation. it was supposed to adapt the books. but then they just went and did their own story with the characters that just wasn’t very good… certainly not nearly as good as the source material.

i think that’s what frustrates me sometimes. when an adaptation just doesn’t hold up to the source. the cowboy bebop lie action wasn’t that bad, but the anime was fucking incredible. in a few years everyone will forget they even did a live action of it. it just wasn’t really worth remembering.

jjjalljs,

I haven’t watched the show yet, but I read that it with the NCR

spoilerit kind of kills them off, and that’s boring and disappointing.

The show is canon, so it’s going to impact future games. So that’s annoying in a way that “just stick to the medium you enjoy” won’t solve.

I thought New Vegas was the most interesting because it was focused on rebuilding, and what comes after.

Also I don’t know how to do the highlight-spoiler instead of the dropdown spoiler :(

setsneedtofeed,
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

I just finished the final episode of the season. I liked it for the most part. The characters- both the actors and the writing kept me engaged. The show felt like it kept moving and didn’t ever plod. Some of the larger lore implications I’m either lukewarm or not thrilled about.

That criticism is okay. It’s strange to see this and other threads full of people trashing fans who didn’t love the show. That kind of personal attack for a differing opinion is managing to completely twist Tim Cain’s comments, and in a way be the kind of person he is cautioning against.

Duamerthrax,

My only solace in the Halo TV series is that it’s its own universe. 343 is shitting up their own story just fine on their own.

And before I get grouped in with “the haters”.

Halo 4 introduces new villain, gets killed in a comic.

Halo Spartan Ops introduces new villain, fleshed out in comic, killed off in a cut scene at the beginning of next game.

Halo 5 introduces new villain, gets killed off screen.

Halo Wars 2 introduces new villain, “killed” off screen. Returns post credits anyway.

Halo 6(Infinite) Introduces TWO new villains, killed in back to back boss fights. Promises more to come though.

Can you see why I’m not hyped anymore?

HidingCat,

Just wanted to chime in as well: Thought I'd watch one episode, watched all eight in the end. It was really good.

FenrirIII,
@FenrirIII@lemmy.world avatar

The show is so good that people are binging and some are spoiling it for others.

MissJinx,
@MissJinx@lemmy.world avatar

I loved it too! As a fan of a series that was never adapted correctly (dark tower) this show gave me hope. Also loved the actors! How can someone hate on some of those amazing performances

HidingCat,

Soon as I saw Walton Goggins on the cast list, I knew it had to be good somewhere. He never disappoints.

Sam_Bass,

You cant please everyone

flamingos,
@flamingos@feddit.uk avatar

I really enjoyed the show, it was good. I just wish it didn’t take place in California. I hate that Bethesda’s idea of Fallout is a wasteland in never-ending strife, one that can never move past the scrappy survivor stage of the post-apocalypse.

BigBananaDealer,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

thats not just bethesda’s idea, most at obsidian also wanted it to go back to being less of a stable wasteland, which is why tunnelers were even created

flamingos,
@flamingos@feddit.uk avatar

True. I need to go back and replay NV again, but I do remember Lonesome Road being one of DLCs I enjoyed the least.

FenrirIII,
@FenrirIII@lemmy.world avatar

Are you kidding? Current society is held together by TV, mobile phones, bubblegum, and laziness.

orphiebaby,

That’s kind of the trend for post-apocalyptic media. Nerdy adults trend towards the cynical, while hope and progress is “kids’ and family stuff”

setsneedtofeed, (edited )
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

I wouldn’t say that. If you take Fallout 1, 2, and NV as a trilogy you can see the rebuilding of society in a post-post apocalyptic story. Things change, but I don’t think they get better, it’s just that the problems take different forms. It’s actualy pretty cynical. No matter how much rebuilding happens or how many iterations of different societies are created, people will always find a reason to be at each other’s throats. You might say: war never changes.

Annoyed_Crabby,

People want the thing to fail because Amazon and Bethesda, the opinion has been this way since the first teaser. Glad Tim likes it and i can’t wait to watch it as well when i can, there’s nothing but hype with their trailer.

Hope it won’t devolve or drag for seasons though.

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Why are people upset about Bethesda? You mean because of the Microsoft acquisition?

halcyoncmdr,
@halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world avatar

Probably thr fact they’re still releasing things on the same dates engine with the same formulaic stories without any new innovation for decades.

vaultdweller013,

I swear the problem is the Bethesda old guard, its pretty clear they want to make semi-linear or adventure games but are pigeonholing themselves into making making big open world games. Also I suspect they have a too many cooks situation going on, they need to break up their main studio into smaller teams who work on multiple smaller projects at once.

DarkMetatron,

It is not the same engine but a ever evolved one. Saying that it is the same engine would be like saying that UE5 is the same engine as UE1

leftzero,

UE has evolved and changed over time to use new hardware features and adapt to new player needs.

Gamebryo is still the exact same engine that ran Morrowind, just running worse games on faster hardware with more memory. It even still has some of the same bugs, which community patch mods have had to fix for every single game (except Starfield, because that’s become such a clusterfuck of bugs and poor design that even the most dedicated modders have given up).

Annoyed_Crabby,

Fallout in their hand isn’t up to the standard of hard-core fans, and also due to FO4’s dialog system, and the technical issue with 76.

leftzero, (edited )

Horse armour.

And, well, mostly everything after that.

orphiebaby,

…Bethesda is a terrible developer and producer with a few good games under its belt that make people really dedicated to it— and I don’t super blame those people. It would be like if half of Zelda games were buggy and unfun and amateur and kinda-ugly trash— and so were most of their other first-party was too— but those three or four great Zeldas and two or three good Marios made people huge fans of the company. Or it would be like, you know, CD Projekt Red making one— maybe two— games so great that people decided all their other games must be great by default even when they’re not (which, well, yeah).

bizzle,
@bizzle@lemmy.world avatar

6 seasons and a movie

Deceptichum,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

I only watched the first episode and skimmed through most of it as it was kinda boring.

Does it get better?

L3mmyW1nks,

What kind of shows are you able to watch when you already need to skim the first episode setting the mood/vibe of the show? TikTok?

Deceptichum,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Shows that are captivating and offer a glimpse of the long term mystery?

Now the first episode of the Expanse had the same flow; introduce the different character groups, world build, and set events into motion.

It ended with multiple different character arcs in motion - an investigation, political drama, lost in space. Fallout had 3 people set off to start their arc maybe next episode? Vault girl leaves, Brotherhood guy leaves, Ghoul leaves.

The Expanse pulled it off fucking fantastically whereas Fallout just felt flat to me.

dog,

Yeah I’m not feeling great about the show. Sure it’s pretty, but it’s so slow.

Maybe that’s a deliberate choice, but as the first episode is, I give it a 7/10.

Not great, not good, but okay.

Juvyn00b,

Agreed. I think for the way they had to cut it up and introduce so many seemingly “key” characters, it really dragged on for me until about mid way. And I still didn’t have a good handle on the world as a whole at that point. Feeling like I’m missing something the whole time makes me not want to continue.

Kelly,

www.ratingraph.com/…/fallout-ratings-116450/

People like the later episodes more

Deceptichum,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Can I just say thank you for being the only person to actually answer my question. If that’s the case I might try to power through a few more.

One more question though, it goes from 8.5 to 8.9; is that a big increase?

It sounds like very little but for all I know 99% of shows could be rated from 7-9, where it would be more impactful.

Kelly,

That site visualizes the per-episode reviews from IMDb so its only as good as its dataset.

I find it most useful when choosing between shows, if I know that a series falls of a cliff if the later seasons I might choose something more consistent instead.

My advice would be to search a couple of other series you know and see what their numbers look like. That should give you a benchmark.

setsneedtofeed, (edited )
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

I think people are taking the wrong takeaway from this. It is okay to dislike the show, it’s okay to criticize it. There is a difference between not liking a final production and declaring that the people who made it are terrible.

This might seem like an obvious distinction, but I’ve ridden this ride before. Different factions of fans declaring themselves more “loyal” or “correct”- some of them hating everything new and getting nasty about the new creators, and other factions blindly loving all the new things. Each faction declaring the other as fake fans and trying to banish them. It is perfectly fine to not like some things, to express it, and to discuss it back and forth. The smug dismissal that fans have of other fans who have a polar opinion of specific productions in a franchise is exhausting.

Tim Cain seems from his channel and his many talks like somebody who tries to think in this multifaceted way. Unfortunately many people clip his words and run off on tangents against his bigger ideas.

leftzero,

rivalry between Fallout entries developed by Bethesda (3, 4, and 76), and those from Interplay, Black Isle, and Obsidian (1, 2, and New Vegas)

Why can’t we all be friends and gang up together on fans of Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel…?

redhorsejacket,

Those poor souls have suffered enough, don’t you think?

Aganim,

Against all two of them? That hardly sounds fair, now does it?

masterspace,

I hope that image is not one from the show. If so it’s pretty shitty and spoilery.

DarkMetatron,

It is from the show but it was part of every single trailer, not much to spoil in that regard.

Binthinkin,

Those are usually the incel kids. I blame Blizzard for creating them.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • games@sh.itjust.works
  • fightinggames
  • All magazines
    •