Mar-a-Lago Judge: Jury Sees Top Secret Files or Trump Wins

The MAGA-friendly federal judge who keeps siding with Donald Trump in his Mar-a-Lago classified records case has forced prosecutors to make a stark choice: allow jurors to see a huge trove of national secrets or let him go.

U.S. District Judge Aileen M. Cannon’sultimatum Monday night came as a surprise twist in what could have been a simple order; one merely asking federal prosecutors and Trump’s lawyers for proposed jury instructions at the upcoming trial.

But as she has done repeatedly, Cannon used this otherwise innocuous legal step as yet another way to swing the case wildly in favor of the man who appointed her while he was president.

Department of Justice Special Counsel Jack Smith must now choose whether to allow jurors at the upcoming criminal trial to peruse the many classified records found at the former president’s South Florida mansion or give jurors instructions that would effectively order them to acquit him.

GroundedGator,

Here are a few other good legal analysis for those who haven’t been following this shit show

youtu.be/wR62ln4UfU0

youtu.be/l4Fr6kIuzSY

OneWomanCreamTeam,

First summary I’ve seen that’s so digestible. Thanks for sharing!

crusa187,

Wasn’t this one of the main reasons for delaying the case to begin with? They had the “special examiner” review all the files to verify they were indeed top secret. I don’t understand why that person can’t just provide a summary to the jury. Letting them see the files seems like massive judicial overreach and probably illegal. Can she be disbarred for this?

knobbysideup,
@knobbysideup@sh.itjust.works avatar

This ignorance alone should get her removed from the case. Dear Lord. There are laws and rules for how classified information must be handled. Wtf?

ryathal,

There are also rules for evidence, which are generally the most important rulings in a criminal trial. Allowing the documents to be left out but also used as evidence is an obvious appeal that likely wins, secret evidence isn’t allowed.

capital,

How the fuck do you prosecute this case then? Read all the jury in just to see the evidence and then back out again?

The jury needs to know if they’re classified. Why do they need to see the contents?

villainy,

This is what I’m asking. What do the contents of the documents have to do with the case at hand? How do the contents of these classified documents absolve him of the charges for making false statements and obstruction of justice?

borari,
@borari@sh.itjust.works avatar

And if the jury really needs to know the contents of the files, I don’t see any issue with just swearing in a jury of already cleared TS SCI w/Poly Commissioned Officers, or just full send it and let Trump get prosecuted in a military court. I’d love to see a bunch of GWOT brass ream that dudes asshole.

ryathal,

The government doesn’t get to just claim things. If they want beyond all reasonable doubt that files were actually dangerous they have to show the files. They could try just going the expert testimony route, but that is a lot harder to prove. Another option would be getting Trump to agree the documents were classified, but that’s a dumb move to agree.

Crashumbc,

I’m pretty sure nothing in the law states that only “dangerous” classified stuff counts. The government absolutely has final say in what is classified.

vaultdweller013,

Yeah it could be the Navy’s secret ice cream recipe and it wouldnt change the consequences.

hobbes_,

Everything you just said was wrong

noisefree,

Lol, the documents are either marked classified or not - he’s not being prosecuted for having “dangerous” (whatever that means) files, he’s being prosecuted for possessing and improperly handling classified files and trying to hide evidence of this and refusing to turn them over when asked to do so.

The core of the alleged crime deals with documents that are classified, not the contents of the classified documents, it does not matter why the documents were classified, only that they are classified. Whether the documents should be classified or where to mundane to be classified in the first place is not something for the jury to consider and not what the prosecution is about; any suggestions to the contrary are smoke and mirrors meant to muddy public discourse.

All the jury needs to be able to verify about the documents possessed by Trump is whether they were marked classified or not, which is a matter of record and is generally denoted by the documents being marked as such.

The judge is being absolutely unreasonable here and the only benefit of the doubt she can be granted is that maybe she just doesn’t understand the law (which would be pretty much just as bad).

This AP timeline of the events leading up to the indictment is a neutral recounting of the facts surrounding the case that should help provide a better understanding, assuming you’re posting in good faith.

reverendsteveii,

Another option would be getting Trump to agree the documents were classified, but that’s a dumb move to agree.

He already did, on tape

“See as president I could have declassified it,” Trump says. “Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”

www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/politics/…/index.html

michaelmrose,

Secret evidence is literally allowed all the time when dealing with secrets if the document in question is specs of nuclear weapons you redact all the strategically important info and allow them to see the header and subject matter without all the details.

Natanael,

He didn’t choose most of these documents because of their contents, just because they’re classified to satisfy his power trip, so all the jury needs to know is that they’re genuine government documents which are classified which he didn’t have the right to take.

If this case had involved what he did with information in it then sure, but it ISN’T

charonn0,
@charonn0@startrek.website avatar

I can only hope that the DOJ is investigating her for corruption.

A_Random_Idiot,

deleted_by_author

    •
    EatATaco,

    Did she actually attend rallies in Trump face paint?

    A_Random_Idiot,

    I have deleted my prior post because I went back to find the picture and it has since been clarified that the one in the photo on the slate article was not, in fact, the judge.

    Apologies for the accidental misinformation.

    EatATaco,

    Good on you for doing the right thing and admitting your mistake. None of us is perfect.

    But can we appreciate for a second the fact that this post has 4 upvotes, but me questioning your “accidental misinformation” has been down voted?Lol. typical Lemmy.

    A_Random_Idiot, (edited )

    Just doing what needs to be done, nothing that should deserve praise.

    Personally I just ignore up/down votes. They are pointless gamification to manipulate human interaction in favor of dopamine triggers and addiction. I’ve tried to filter them with ublock origin so i cant even see the buttons or the numbers, but it just seems to remove them for that individual post.

    I’d suggest anyone especially ignore commentless downvotes, Cause you will always find random assholes that just get their shits and giggles from downvoting shit for no reason other than the fact it gives them some undeserved sense of power and control in their otherwise empty and pathetic lives.

    EatATaco,

    We’re basically agreeing, just saying it different ways: voting on these websites is a joke.

    A_Random_Idiot,

    Of course.

    Its not meant for any useful or good purpose. Its only there as an addiction driver to get people on that dopamine high. Which has resulted in human interaction on the internet (especially places that include up/down vote or similar mechanisms such as likes) becoming more and more extreme and polarized.

    cultsuperstar,

    Can she really do that, force the jury without security clearance to view top secret documents? Seems bullshit to me.

    But what are the options? Obviously she says to let Trump go if the jury can’t see the docs. If he gets the jury see the docs, do they have to get security clearance? They have to sign an NDA of some sort?

    OldWoodFrame,

    Hopefully they can appeal and just provide summaries or redacted documents. Or get security clearance for jurors, sure.

    There has to be a way to convict someone for stealing state secrets without sharing those state secrets publicly.

    If it’s illegal to share classified documents, including to jury members, and the jury can’t convict without seeing all the info on the classified documents, then it is just legal to share classified documents, you would be unable to prosecute. That would be crazy.

    joel_feila,
    @joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

    you would be unable to prosecute

    I think that’s the point

    Professorozone,

    I know right? What circular reasoning this is. The government is concerned about keeping our secrets safe, so they ask for the former president to return them and must force the issue when he doesn’t, but to keep the secrets safe the judge wants them to divulge the secrets?

    I do not see the relevance of the actual contents. It could have been a government encryption device or a cell phone or something.

    As an alternative couldn’t they redact the crucial parts? Ex. “Submarine x, with a periscope depth of xxx is to be deployed in a xxx configuration to secure the xxx area.” Pretty easy to see the reason for the secrecy without giving the details. Although there are probably situations where this wouldn’t work.

    stoly,

    I sort of think that showing them the secrets would actively harm Trump because it would become obvious just how dangerous the material is. I don’t think she’s really thought this thing through.

    ripcord,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    Is the gambit here that they weren’t actually that bad?

    stoly,

    No, I think that they are actually that bad. I also think that the judge is dumb enough to have actually now placed these super important documents in the hands of 12 jurors plus some alternates in an effort to bow to her orange master. My take: she’s not actually that smart but thinks she is and she thinks she just did a “gotcha”. I believe that a jury seeing them would be shocked at what was left in a bathroom for anyone to steal.

    ripcord, (edited )
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    Genuine question - do we know enough to know these were that bad?

    I’d definitely believe what you’re saying too but curious how much we know about the contents.

    Edit: lol at the downvotes, lemmy

    stoly,

    do we know enough to know these were that bad?

    We do: Trump is facing a criminal trial over them. They wouldn’t be classified if they weren’t sensitive.

    eva_sieve,

    The defining characteristic of US classified documents is that their release would cause some degree of damage to US national security, ranging from harmful to gravely harmful. here’s a Cornell Law writeup that squares with what I know here.

    Regardless of any opinions one might have as to the use and application of classification, in the eyes of the US government taking these documents without authorization is harmful by definition.

    Ragnarok314159,

    If something is classified at that level that only top people can see it, then it’s bad. Not like “here is how to make a reactor” type make, but more like “here are all our spies, weapons projects, and seriously damaging information if it fell into the wrong hands”.

    Which would be Trump’s tiny hands.

    michaelmrose,

    Yes we know from the reports of the documents that they included nuclear secrets and human intelligence sources. The later could cause people who are spying for us to be prosecuted and murdered and the mere suggestion that an idiot could leak this data has probably unfixably damaged our ability to collect intel for the next 20 years.

    capital,

    Within a classification level there isn’t “bad” and “less bad”.

    If we prosecute anyone for leaking classified, we should prosecute anyone/everyone for leaking classified.

    piecat,

    What’s the least bad thing that would be worth classifying and also stealing

    Natanael,

    Corporate espionage stuff. Some pile of documents a gov agency reviewed for compliance reasons, and which a competitor wants.

    RestrictedAccount,

    She is helping Trump extend the trial until after the election.

    If she can help him get elected, then he can order the Justice Department to drop the case.

    Got_Bent,

    I truly underestimated how deep the movement that’s using Trump’s cult of personality for its own means runs.

    We’re so very fucked.

    Cryophilia,

    It’s just Aileen Cannon. Again.

    This does underscore a critical weakness in our government: if a corrupt federal judge gets in position, they can cause all sorts of havoc. The judicial branch of the government needs an overhaul.

    IphtashuFitz,

    Jury selection will take forever… Step 1, reject everybody without a security clearance…

    Asafum,

    Unfortunately we’re too close to the election at this point. I don’t see any case that isn’t just a monetary settlement being delt with before he takes office and makes his DOJ dog wipe it all away…

    Evilcoleslaw,

    NY criminal case regarding the Stormy Daniels hush money should start next month.

    Nightwingdragon,

    Its also the weakest case, most inconsequential, and puts Trump at no real risk. And even in that case, the judge and da seem willing to bend over for him.

    BigMacHole,

    Showing TOP SECRET and HIGHER documents to random people on the street HELPS American National Security!

    BrokenGlepnir,

    It’s unprecedented. I know what the supporters would say "so is prosecuting an ex president ". There’s a difference. A fast food CEO killing a dozen people and serving them up in 15 different locations is unprecedented. A judge wouldn’t say that the jury has to try the burgers though.

    Neato,
    @Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

    Either “a jury is permitted to examine” every record a former president swipes and claims as “personal” to determine whether it is, or jurors must be told that “a president has sole authority… to categorize records as personal or presidential during his/her presidency.”

    Can’t categorize files as personal after you vacate office. Classified files are by law government property and cannot be owned by anyone. Can’t declassify files after leaving office.

    This hack needs to be impeached and this trial appealed and the judge replaced posthaste.

    thefartographer,

    “Hey random person! How’s about you read this document and tell me if it sounds Top Secret.”

    “Okay, but in your uninformed opinion, is this document one or two levels more secret than those other declassified files?”

    Neato, (edited )
    @Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

    Another option for the prosecution is to redact classified info. It doesn’t actually matter what is in the document, just that it’s classified because a former President is disallowed to possess classified material.

    For more info: classified documents have extensive markets markings. The header and footer of every page with material is marked either, Unclassified (if present in docs with higher), CUI, Secret, Top Secret, etc. In addition, the document will have markings for each paragraph on if that particular paragraph or line contains classified material and at what level. So the prosecution could definitely just redact everything above Unclassified and the remainder of the text should paint a fairly clear picture of what the document contains without revealing specific classified details.

    Of course this treasonous judge would probably interpret as you did because she belongs behind bars not a bench.___

    AbidanYre,

    classified documents have extensive markets

    The markets for these ones were Saudi Arabia, Russia, and maybe China.

    Neato,
    @Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

    Lol. Damn Freud up in my typos.

    frezik,

    Face it, you want to fuck classified documents, which are also your mother.

    thefartographer,

    Yo pops, that’s a real nice dong you got there. Sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it.

    CosmicTurtle,

    Playing a bit of devil’s advocate.

    We have a tendency to over classify things in general. When I was in a TS SCIF, we would mark things S/TS because we were lazy and didn’t want to go through the process to see if something was subject to disclosure.

    Assuming, with a great heaping serving of salt, that there is validity to Trump’s claim, I can sort of understand putting to a jury to see if the files that Trump took were in fact classified. I can see him stealing the documents simply because it had a cover sheet and not because it was valuable. While I’m sure that he absolutely took sensitive and classified information, I’m equally sure that there is probably a take out menu or two in those boxes.

    The problem is that the run of the mill citizen isn’t equipped to properly classify a document. I don’t know what probative value exists in giving the documents to jurors outside of forcing the prosecution to put them in the public record.

    dream_weasel,

    Jurors provide no value beyond the markings even if they are over-classified. I mean I guess you could beat out the security classification guides and a derivative classification course… But even so, the president is only an OCA while in office so the point is kinda moot. I don’t think the specific document content matters, just whether or not updated SCG exists with same content, yeah?

    Basically, “this line is referencing this item in the guide, the guide still says classified, ergo this is a spill”.

    breadsmasher,
    @breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

    Im just trying to understand your experience there. So being lazy, documents could be marked S/TS. And then following on to allowing the jurybto see whether they were classified.

    This sounds to me you’re suggesting the jury should verify these documents, and assuming some are marked S/TS, come to a decision as to whether it should actually be that classification and not some lower classification allowing more general disclosure?

    NotMyOldRedditName,

    Judge: ignore any markings on the filed indicating top secret, classified, human intelligence, and make your own decisions on each file!

    nondescripthandle,

    The government doesn’t really do consequences for conservatives to well.

    Ferrous,

    If Trump is such an imminent threat to democracy, and his game plan is full on fascism, why doesn’t Joe Biden or the democrats simply ban him from running?

    nondescripthandle,

    Joe Biden was never the candidate who was going to go tough on fascism. In fact only the most stalwart of the progressives would do that.

    Also Democrats raised more money during Trumps candidacy and term in office than ever before. Hes a great monster under the bed they can point to. Its the same reason Republicans will never fix the border, even when they have a majority, they need those issues to exist so they can manufacture Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, and use it to keep the power they have.

    Biden ran for president like six times and when he won was when his opponent was a literal fascist. It’s factually correct to say that the threat of Trump allows the DNC to run candidates that would otherwise lose elections. I also suspect when Democrats say things like ‘we have to beat Trump at the ballot box’ it’s because they know if Trump was locked up and Haley got the nomination, Biden would have a much lower chance of winning.

    TurtleJoe,
    @TurtleJoe@lemmy.world avatar

    Biden would wipe the floor with Haley.

    nondescripthandle,

    He’s still not beating Trump in swing states, and that’s with the anti Trump Republicans on his side, you live in a fantasy world if you dont realize Biden loses all the center right support he has to Haley if she’s in the general.

    TurtleJoe,
    @TurtleJoe@lemmy.world avatar

    The supreme Court has already ruled (deliberately incorrectly) that a candidate cannot be barred from running for federal office unless 2/3 of Congress declares them an insurrectionist.

    (The original language of the amendment says that 2/3 of Congress is required to allow a former insurrectionist to hold office, the SC intentionally got it backwards to allow so the treasonous Rs, not just Trump, who participated in 1/6 to avoid consequences.

    Ferrous,

    So what you’re saying is that under our system, fascists are entitled to run for president?

    Trump broke every rule on the book - why can’t Joe? The democrat’s weird-ass obsession with precedent, civility, and the sanctity of American politics (that were devised by 30 year old white slave owners) has made them entirely toothless and ill equipped to deal with fascism. I’ll never understand the liberal position that fascists must, at all costs, be allowed to run in elections. Stomp that shit out.

    Blooper,

    This makes me a bit excited to see a court rule that a sitting president is immune. If that happens (it won’t), I would expect Biden to immediately take full advantage of his newfound powers and publicly announce a dead or alive bounty for a whole slew of right-wing fascists currently holding or running for public office. That particular ruling could really solve this little Nazi problem that’s been developing here in the US.

    “Good news, Mr Trump! You’re off the hook since one of those obviously illegal things you did were crimes because you had presidential immunity. Hey, while I have you…”

    Xtallll,
    @Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Technically Trump could be done with a simple majority, if you can get it through the senate.

    Cryophilia,

    If Trump is such a threat to democracy, why don’t we do away with democracy to stop him??

    guacupado,

    A couple states did. But Trump also owns half the supreme court and they just ruled the states have to let Trump run.

    cybersandwich,

    and you can’t just handwave classification away. There is a legal process involve.

    Ragnarok314159,

    It’s a Trump appointed judge. I doubt they could even pass an intro to law class.

    runner_g,

    The judge was appointed by trump and should be automatically recused from the case.

    capital,

    Recusal, by definition, is to remove oneself. She isn’t going to do that.

    Raykin,

    Could this be the first judge to go to jail for Trump?

    grue,

    I don’t really care what hole she goes into, but she needs to go somewhere that isn’t the courtroom!

    AbidanYre,

    Fired

    Out of a cannon

    Into the sun

    fitgse,

    I highly recommend civil discourse. She does an excellent job of breaking down everything going on in the trump cases:

    joycevance.substack.com

    Atom,

    Maybe they should move the case to DC then so there are enough active Top Secret clearances to create a healthy jury pool.

    NotMyOldRedditName,

    No defense/prosecutor would want a jury make up like that, they’d be too smart.

    MagicShel,

    Clearance doesn’t mean someone is particularly intelligent. But I agree a jury of clearance holders would probably have pretty strong ideas regarding proper handling of it, so the defense clearly doesn’t want that.

    NotMyOldRedditName,

    Clearance doesn’t mean someone is particularly intelligent

    I’m pretty sure it would weed out the bottom of the barrel idiots at least which I’m sure someone would prefer to have on the jury as they’d be easier convinced one way or the other.

    capital,

    Those people could easily imagine themselves in the hot seat and they know damn well how it would go.

    Agree, not good for the defense.

    stoly,

    Also more conservative than not.

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