Every single time this type of shit plays out the same way. Outrage at whichever Palestinian group did whatever. Outrage at Israel’s response. Then people taking what they think are reasonable sides in a religious war, then finally things calm back down to the fucked up status quo. I see no reason this will be any different.
I think there are four factors at play here. They’re mixed together in an extremely messy fashion and overlap quite a bit, but they are:
The people on both sides fear for their safety. The Palestinians fear the Israeli government and military taking action against them. The Israeli people fear rocket attacks and raids like the one that just happened. When a populace lives in fear, it leads to -
Extremist groups are in charge. You have Hamas on one side whose stated goal is to kill all Jews. (Not just in Israel, but across the world.) You have the right wing Israeli government on the other side who push for horrible actions against the Palestinians in the name of “safety.”
Foreign interference. Iran on one side is arming/helping Hamas. On the other side, evangelical Christians help the settlers and push the Israeli government because they think Jesus will come back if Israel suffers a big enough attack. (Peace would prevent that attack and stop Jesus from returning.)
A long and bloody history. Both sides remember when they were killed by the other side. Both sides refuse to leave the past in the past and intend on making the other side pay. The problem here is that the cycle of violence never breaks. If you always have to attack because “they did X to us” then they will feel like they always need to attack because you did Y to them. It goes around and around and never changes no matter how much everyone suffers.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize. I wish I did know. I’d set the peace prize aside in a second, tell the world what to do, and stop it all. Unfortunately, I’m no diplomat. (Some of the best diplomats have failed in this arena.) I can see what’s going on, but I have no clue how to stop it.
The best I can think of is that perhaps UN security forces need to move in. Not to attack one side or another, but to keep both sides away from each other. Sort of like the national version of putting two kids who were fighting in time out until things cool down. But again, I’m no diplomat so for all I know that would make things worse.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks. It wouldn’t cause the people on both sides to feel safe enough to trust in a peace process and to forgive past actions.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution to this, if there is one, is going to be very complicated and difficult to achieve. It will be worth it, but it won’t be easy.
You would also need someone on the Palestinian side that the Israelis would trust to keep their word and not attack. That trust just isn’t there and will be difficult to rebuild.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you. The illegal settlements need to go. I’d like to see any illegal settlements responded to by having a special group of Israeli police, working with Palestinian authorities and not just moving in on their own, arresting the settlers instead of the military moving in to protect them.
There’s also the outside influence to consider. Evangelical Christians love the settlers. They help them and any politicians who would protect them. They’d work against a politician who promised to arrest them.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution won’t be an easy one.
They are not. Israel is an apartheid state. Palestinians are legally deprived of human rights and restricted to ghettos. Hamas is merely an extremist group that offers Palestinians something, even if its something they cannot deliver on and have no legitimate means of achieving. Palestinians have been massacred by Israel since its inception. Israelis have occasionally died in comparatively small numbers from Hamas attacks. Hamas is not Palestine though. And hamas has no legal power within the Israeli state. The Israeli state is entirely responsible for the current state of affairs and for the ongoing violence.
Palestinians have no state. They have no home. They are kept in ghettos. They are currently facing one of the largest humanitarian crises of the 21st century. The Israeli state could stop it all tomorrow. They could stop it all right now. Unconditionally grant equal citizenship to all Palestinians, return them their homes, give them 50% representation in the Israeli government, and formally condemn the racism and genocidal rhetoric of the Netanyahu administration and the many war crimes committed both by him and the IDF and the Israeli police force.
Its entirely up to Israel. Palestinians can do none of these things. Their only available recourse is extremism.
You are so delusional about this situation that you think somehow a one state solution could work at this point. A two state solution is the only answer but unfortunately the leadership on both sides right now would never let that happen and the leadership on one side in particular (Hamas) is set on full extermination of the other party.
Hamas is an extremist group, they are only considered a reasonable thing to support because Palestinians do not have human rights and are confined to ghettos. One party in this situation is actively genociding the other, and quite understandably Palestinians are more inclined to listen to extremists than the Israeli state genociding them. Israel has actively sabotaged every single attempt at negotiations since the mid 90s. Netanyahu can be thanked for that. Him and the racists who support him.
Hamas is nothing if Palestinians had rights. Palestinians are just people, they are not an army they are not a militia. They deserve human rights. Israel could do that today. They deserve their homes back. Israel could do that today. Hamas has nothing to do with it. There’s never an excuse to deprive a race of people their rights and freedoms. Genocide is never acceptable. Apartheid is never acceptable.
Hamas cannot change the apartheid state. They have tried repeatedly since the mid 90s and every time America and Israel have sabotaged negotiations and refused to give Palestinians equal rights.
Hamas was elected once and there have been no elections since. They also have no actual political power in Israel so it doesn’t really make a difference who is elected. Netanyahu wants to commit genocide, he has no interest in changing anything.
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies. It’s not easy, but it’s less dangerous than attacking a modern military.
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government. They’re more interested in keeping their power and position with help from Iran. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a violent terrorist before he turned to 100% non-violence.
Here’s an interesting article that no one will read:
I can only think to part of a response Orwell had for pacifists:
I am not interested in pacifism as a ‘moral phenomenon’. If Mr Savage and others imagine that one can somehow ‘overcome’ the German army by lying on one’s back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen. As an ex-Indian civil servant, it always makes me shout with laughter to hear, for instance, Gandhi named as an example of the success of non-violence. As long as twenty years ago it was cynically admitted in Anglo-Indian circles that Gandhi was very useful to the British government. So he will be to the Japanese if they get there. Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
That’s why I said democracies are vulnerable to non-violent resistance.
Democracies, like Israel, are the opposite of authoritarian governments. Developed democracies can withstand all the force you send at them because they rule with the consent of the governed and have much larger resources at their disposal.
They are more vulnerable to soft power. Hamas already has broadcast abilities. They should literally get rid of most weapons, and start broadcasting 24/7 about the hardships of living in the West Bank and Gaza. They have an unlimited amount of ammo because Israel genuinely makes people’s lives terrible.
Not age caps, periodic mandatory cognitive function tests.
Bernie is only slightly younger than Pelosi chronologically, but at least a couple decades sharper mentally. Trump is YOUNGER than Bernie but as senile as the day is long at the height of summer.
Though most start to decline at or a few years after 70, some people can stay sharp long after and we need people like Bernie just as much as we don’t need people like Pelosi.
There are socialist third party candidates already running. Claudia/Karina from PSL (Party for Socialism and Liberation) and Cornell West. I think it would make more sense to throw support behind one of them.
“Many have reportedly been subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, denied menstruation pads, food and medicine, and severely beaten,” they said. “On at least one occasion, Palestinian women detained in Gaza were allegedly kept in a cage in the rain and cold, without food.”
This place is really becoming part of the Palestinian propaganda machine.
Wow, I wasnt wrong.
Criticizing Israel for the Genocide it is currently doing is one thing. Relating this criticism to a Palestinian propaganda machine is another. Do you by any chance have any link -that is not related to zionist sources or wiki- to support your claim?
Of course the holocaust happened. So did slavery in the US, genocide of Armenians and several others, and Apartheid in South Africa. Those do not mean that Apartheid and Genocide are not happening now in Palestine. All are true. There are Jewish only roads and cities, there is a political group called Jewish power, and the current government is well right of Trump. This is not normal or ok.
Only against women and girls, sexual violence against men and boys they do not want to address. But maybe they shouldn't be so suspicious, maybe there isn't a single case or fear that it could happen.
That must be it. The same people who raised the alarm that women are the main victims in ukraine and put the spotlight on sexual violence against women, using the same reports that said ukrainian men suffered it twice as much, can't be sexist manipulators.
But anyway, at least they seem to care about half the population...too bad they did nothing until now when those same women were being bombed indiscriminately.
No, they are not all being killed. There are about 2 million innocent people in the entire Strip. Death figures according to the Gazan Health Ministry are around 30,000 currently.
It’s not impossible though, it’s been attempted before in history, by ethno-nationalist asshats just like Netanyahu’s supporters.
This can get much worse. Many zealots want it worse.
When I hear things like Dearborn MI is voting for Trump, there’s a sick part of me that wants to see what would happen if the Arab community was the reason Trump got into power.
Like, I understand that you’re very angry with the current situation but are you actually going to ruin your life and that of millions of your supposed brothers in the middle east to express that anger? Do people forget what Trump did as soon as he was in office last time?
If both parties are going to genocide Arabs while they’re in charge, the blood is on their hands and no one else’s. Only assholes and morons will blame Arabs in the US for the massacre of Palestinians.
I love all the comments like “Biden isn’t being tough enough on Israel! Biden isn’t stopping the genocide!”
Besides the fact that people are asking Biden to do something that directly hurts US foreign policy interests…
Do they REALLY think that the Republican party is on the side of stopping brown people dying? Biden in office is probably the most gentle response Palestine is going to get for 10/7. Republicans are frothing at the mouth to boost JDAM and Paveway kit sales.
Yep they keep saying lesser of two evils while the options get more and more evil despite claiming “incremental progress”. Moderates are completely disconnected from reality or they’re just too afraid to actually push for something better.
The problem is with Trump, particularly, there’s good reason to be afraid.
“We want to punish the democrats for supporting Israel, so we are going to let Trump win”
GOP proceeds to double down on oppressive wars, no improvement for Gaza. Further, you get a government full of leaders that, in the wake of losing in 2020, openly pondered ways of just rigging the election so they don’t have to get votes to win anymore. You had laws proposed in GOP states to declare the legislature could pick whatever electors they wanted ignoring their voters. You had people running for non-partisan election administration positions promising they’ll make sure Republicans win, no matter what. They actively tried to send fake electors that particular cycle, even without any legal backing.
So, in at least one scenario, congratulations, you successfully admonished Biden for his misbehavior, and now, we have at least as bad misbehavior, and maybe some unwinding of democracy to make sure we never get to influence foreign policy ever again.
Yeah, nobody voting for Trump cares. They’re brown people. They might PRETEND to care, but I promise you they don’t. This isn’t one of those things that isn’t going to pull toward Biden OR Trump either way.
Biden’s only support has always been “I’m not Trump”. Nobody is changing their mind on if they’re voting for Biden because of little “scrap(s) of help”.
His policies aren’t costing him support anywhere, it’s a common whataboutism that Trump supporters spout to try and claim that Biden is slipping, trying to further erode poll numbers.
His policies aren’t costing him support anywhere, it’s a common whataboutism that Trump supporters spout to try and claim that Biden is slipping, trying to further erode poll numbers.
100,000 voters in Michigan just voted ‘No Confidence’, because of his policies around Gaza and Israel, or approximately 10% of the vote.
Biden can not afford to lose 10% of the votes he got in 2020. He will lose if he does, and especially not in swing states (like MI).
2016 it wasn’t Trump v Biden now was it. Hillary Clinton was her own worst enemy. That’s a whole fucking can of worms all on its own. She was responsible for the grave she dug. Fake-ass I carry hot-sauce with me everywhere, please-like-me-black-people Hillary Clinton…her woes had nothing to do with Primary voters not falling in line and more to do with her being an unlikeable cunt.
I voted for him on his not-Trump platform last time and I won’t vote for him this time unless he stops this shit in Israel. Either he shapes up or steps down from the primaries… or we risk Trump again.
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President Donald Trump shattered decades of unwavering U.S. neutrality on Jerusalem on December 6th 2017, declaring the sorely divided holy city as Israel’s capital and sparking frustrated Palestinians to cry out that he had destroyed already-fragile Mideast hopes for peace.
Defying dire, worldwide warnings, Trump insisted that after repeated peace failures it was past time for a new approach, starting with what he said was his decision merely based on reality to recognize Jerusalem as the seat of Israel’s government. He also said the United States would move its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, though he set no timetable.
“We cannot solve our problems by making the same failed assumptions and repeating the same failed strategies of the past,” Trump said, brushing aside the appeals for caution from around the world.
When Trump comes back to power he will definitely recognize Gaza as Israel territory and also remove Biden’s sanctions on West Bank’s Jewish settlers.
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