France votes to ban ‘forever chemicals,’ exempting frying pans

The French National Assembly on Thursday unanimously adopted a bill aimed at restricting the manufacture and sale of products containing per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances — also known as PFAS or “forever chemicals.” The MPs, backed by the government, voted to exclude kitchen utensils from the scope of the text.

Thanks to an intense lobbying push, manufacturers of frying pans and saucepans — including the SEB group, which owns Tefal — are exempt from this ban under the proposed law penned by French Green MPs.

Majority groups initially tried to delay the ban on kitchen utensils until 2030 — a timetable refused by the French Green MPs who instead suggested an exemption until 2026.

PersnickityPenguin,

They have non-PFAS nonstick pans now. Ours are ceramic coated.

Jimmycakes,

Most people can’t cook for shit and their stainless pan would be trashed in a few uses

3volver,

Stainless steel cookware is cheap, easy to clean, and extremely durable. Nonstick pans are for people who don’t know shit.

bcron,

It’s not planned obsolescence but something remarkably similar. They can be made for cheaper, go to shit eventually, then they wind up in a landfill while the consumer buys yet another. All wrapped up in slick marketing.

kcuf,

They’re not really easy to clean, but I’m sure I’m also “cooking wrong”. With that said I only ever use cast iron so I don’t really care

DigitalDruid,

deleted_by_author

    •
    kcuf,

    Oh you put them in the dishwasher? I guess I didn’t think of that

    Test_Tickles,

    The heavy duty soaps used in dishwasher soap will strip the seasoned layer off your pans. Then you will need to re-season them. Some people like to make seasoning your pans into an extreme ritual that can be tedious. But if you’ve got stuff so hardcore stuck to your pan that a little soaking doesn’t solve the problem then your seasoned layer is screwed anyways. So you might as well let the dishwasher do the hard work for you.

    general_kitten,

    A proper stainless steel frying pan here costs about 100€+, more than a similar sized carbon steel or cast iron would cost

    AA5B,

    That’s crazy, depending on what you mean by “proper”. However I lucked out getting a full set of nice five ply stainless at a closeout for under $200

    I also got a couple cast iron skillets on sale.

    Overall, I spent less getting a full set of stainless plus 3 cast iron skillets, than I did on my previous set of non-stick about ten years ago, and these should last much longer. Is it too early to say this is my last set of cookware?

    n3m37h,

    Love being able to use steel wool on my wok without worry

    squid_slime,

    as someone who’d worked in the restaurant industry i second this.

    anon987,

    Stainless + cast iron is all you need.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Cast iron doesn’t like dishwashers though

    AstridWipenaugh,

    You’re not wrong, but it only takes 30-60 seconds to clean by hand. Scrub with chainmail and water then a light wash with a non-lye soap like dawn to remove excess oils. The soap isn’t even necessary if you use really hot water then wipe it clean with a rag.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    True but needing all kinds of special treatment and equipment just for one pan type is a pain

    NoTittyPicsPlz,

    Once your pan is seasoned it takes so little care. Just give it a fast hand wash like any non stick pan. Dish soaps used to be bad but these days they’re gentle enough to not be a problem.

    To me, what is a pain is having to buy a pan every couple years. Or getting a new non stick pan and having roommates use metal on it when I specifically said not to.

    The durability of cast iron makes it less fuss, imo.

    Aasikki,

    Yeah the durability is the greatest thing. I can use metal spatulas and scrape away. No need to baby it, it’s literally a hunk of metal. I don’t even give a shit how the seasoning looks anymore, if food doesn’t stick badly it’s all good.

    AstridWipenaugh,

    It doesn’t need any special treatment. I season my cast iron pans no more than a few times a year, and usually only because I did something dumb like making tomato sauce in it instead of using the stainless steel pan. There is a minimum skill level, but the bar isn’t high at all.

    Aasikki,

    I don’t even remember the last time I seasoned mine. Definitely not even once a year.

    ribboo,

    People overdo it to be honest. I just stopped caring and started using dish soap. Zero problems whatsoever. So it’s not more work than a regular pan.

    SwingingTheLamp,

    I’ve hit upon the technique of just storing my cast iron pan in the oven. After using it, I wash it gently with dish soap to get the food/oil off, dry it, and put it back in the oven, maybe with a light wipe of oil. That way, it gets seasoned incidentally every time I bake something. It’s super easy, and stays nice and shiny now.

    Aasikki,

    You don’t need any special equipment. Chain mail is useful to have in general though (not just for cast iron), but not mandatory.

    FluffyPotato,

    There are people who go crazy with cast iron pans, seasoning and whatnot. I have had the same cast iron pan for around 30 years and I washed it by hand like all the other dishes before I had a dishwasher and now I wash it in a dishwasher, it works the same all these years.

    tal,
    @tal@lemmy.today avatar

    You really do need to make sure that you’re drying it, though. If the dishwasher doesn’t do a good job of drying it, and you don’t hand-dry it, you will rust cast iron. And, yes, you can strip some of the surface off and get a rusted piece of cast iron back into shape, but it’s a pain in the rear. Stainless steel doesn’t care if it sits around with water on it.

    Going from non-stick to stainless steel buys me not having to worry about using metal utensils. It’s gonna last a lot longer.

    But going from stainless steel to cast iron doesn’t really buy me much. I mean, cast iron tends to be thick, but if you want, you can get thick-walled cooking implements that have a stainless steel surface too.

    The only thing I can think of that cast iron buys relative to stainless steel is maybe if someone wants some extra iron added to their food – something that might matter more for women who are menstruating – but if one wants iron supplements, I mean, one can just take iron supplements, and that gives more control than the amount coming out of cookware.

    Aasikki,

    Imo pans just take too much space in the dishwasher so I’ll just wash them immediately after use. Takes like 30 seconds because the pan still being hot helps immensely. After drying I like to oil them, just because I like how they look oiled, literally no other reason.

    Gimpydude,

    I’d add carbon steel pans as well. They’re the good tradeoff between stainless and cast iron.

    raef,

    I like cast iron mainly for baking (Dutch oven, etc) and carbon steel for pans.

    Gimpydude,

    Yeah, I do that too. Cast iron is amazing for stuff like that.

    time_fo_that,

    It was on Kickstarter which makes me a bit nervous, but I found a set of carbon steel clad pans from a new company called Strata Cookware. They’re the weight of something like an All-Clad but with a carbon steel top sheet. Pretty excited to try them out.

    Aasikki,

    I prefer to have all 3: stainless, cast iron and carbon steel. Personally I have a carbon steel wok that does double duty as a frying pan.

    Faresh,

    To avoid stuff sticking to stainless steel, is the secret heating up the oily pan to a high temperature before adding the ingredients?

    AA5B,

    Not quite that simple, but

    • yes a good first rule is something is less likely to stick if it hits a hot pan
    • another good one is to always clean right away. It makes a huge difference in how easy it is
    • the harder part is not over-heating and causing the sugars or other solids to burn.
    • learn how to deglaze: clean the pan with no effort by making a delicious sauce
    • learn different ways to clean. Sometimes you will burn stuff but it’s not a disaster and doesn’t have to mean a huge scrubbing effort
    WhoIsTheDrizzle,

    Actually, you heat the pan without oil first - this is important. To test the temp, you can add a splash of water. The perfect temp is when the water pools together and bounces around. Once the pan is nice and hot, add oil. Let it get hot - use med-high heat. From there it is non-stick and you can adjust to your cooking temp. If you are dealing with really sticky food, you can throw out that initial hot oil, then add some fresh oil, bring it just to cooking temp and add your food. It sounds slightly complicated and takes a little practice, but if you do this, your stainless steel pans will work better than non-stick pans. Also, for deep cleaning your pans, you can soak with spent lemons or oranges and rinds. Can also add baking soda for extra cleaning power. For the outside of your pans, use barkeeper’s friend once a year. Incorporate all this and you have excellent buy it for life stainless steel pans.

    AlecSadler,

    Any tips for eggs? I can’t keep eggs from sticking to save my life when using stainless, even with generous oil and/or butter.

    WhoIsTheDrizzle, (edited )

    Try the methods I explained and play with the temps. You may need to get it hotter before the oil, or after you put the oil in. Try getting the oil super hot, tossing it and then putting in new oil and getting that hot. Try messing with the temps each time until you figure it out. Once you do, you’ll get a feel for it and have way less trouble. The thickness of your pan plays into how quickly it will heat. I do this same method for my wok but since it’s so thin and less conductive, it instantly heats.

    Are you struggling with fried eggs or scrambled?

    AlecSadler,

    Hmm, yeah I’ll have to experiment. Fried eggs I’ve mostly got, but scrambled just ends up leaving a thin stuck mess every time.

    zalgotext,

    I find it much easier to cook scrambled eggs in a well-seasoned carbon steel or cast iron pan. You can do it in stainless, but it’s definitely more finicky.

    WhoIsTheDrizzle,

    Don’t give up! Fried eggs are much easier. I’ve got mine on lock. I’ll sometimes do the double oil trick with scrambled eggs. I cook mine low and slow, which I think is a little more difficult to get the oil just right. When I do a faster cook and constantly move them, I’ve had better results.

    _sideffect,

    Turn down the heat

    PersnickityPenguin,

    Moar butter

    Add water and poach

    Raiderkev,

    I fucking hate nonstick pans. I’m currently renting a condo on vacation and all the cookware is nonstick. I’m not willing to trade cancer for the minor inconvenience of my food to not stick to my pan. Not to mention, since it’s a rental condo, and a hundred random people have used it, they are all scratched to shit. I’m low key tempted to go to Ross mid trip for a stainless pan.

    tal,
    @tal@lemmy.today avatar

    Yeah, I mean, I don’t have any objection to use of nonstick cookware, but seriously, as long as you put some oil on the pan and don’t let what you’re cooking burn, it really isn’t that big of a deal.

    And if you use steel cookware, you don’t have to worry about avoiding metal utensils that might damage nonstick cookware.

    cosmicrookie,
    @cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

    I actually googled Tefal after reading just the title to check if they arena French company… God i hate lobying

    Lumisal,

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1f53d160-9062-4a64-a244-20ea12097221.jpeg

    Lumisal,

    I use Carbon Arch btw

    dontwakethetrees,
    @dontwakethetrees@lemmy.world avatar

    Stainless Steel Debian is good enough for me.

    Lumisal,

    Hey as long as it isn’t Teflon Windows 👍

    Copper Tin Void nodding in agreement in the distance wearing a fancy tuxedo

    Kusimulkku,

    I love that tefal stuff ngl.

    dubyakay,

    If I was French I’d probably demonstrate against the lobby groups and the government decision right now.

    Firipu,
    @Firipu@startrek.website avatar

    I mean, it’s almost Monday again, have to find a reason to get a long weekend no?

    Sneptaur,
    @Sneptaur@pawb.social avatar

    Hon hon hon hon

    paskalivichi,

    Sounds great, let’s ban it in every form except the one we literally eat…

    Frozengyro,

    I presume it’s mostly used in the handles. I don’t think we cook on plastic.

    Player2,

    Nonstick pans, though most of the harm is from manufacture, not end-use

    Daxter101,

    Yeah, huge amount of harm to the people around the manufacturing plants.

    And some amount of eating extremely inert molecules to the people buying them.

    Two separate things, the first worse than the second, but still.

    paskalivichi,

    Its used as the nonstick coating

    itsnotits,

    It’s* used as

    Not_mikey,

    It’s on the non stick coating for a lot of pans and can easily flake off and be ingested if you damage it by using metal utensils. This is why you should never use metal on nonstick.

    A_Random_Idiot, (edited )

    I have family that makes me rip my hair out over this shit.

    They put their non-stick in the oven, They use metal tools on it, and they refuse to replace it when the coating fails and starts coming off.

    They denigrate me as some kine of hoity-toity rich man with my “pointless” pain replacements, when they arent getting angry at me for “looking down” on them by saying that their pans unsafe.

    Just buy a cast iron or a steel pan for fucks sake!

    xnx,

    What’s wrong with using it in the oven?

    Chewget,

    The teflon coating starts to breakdown at higher temperatures. The pan or box they came in has to state not safe for oven use. Also preheating on the burner can cause it. Food in the pan mostly prevents it from reaching that temperature.

    Most Teflon pans used to have plastic handles that dummy proofs them from the oven.

    Doof,

    I’m more worried that your family forces you to rip your hair out

    Sterile_Technique,
    @Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world avatar

    I used to work in food service - I remember one day they replaced all the pans with new ones that had a black Teflon coating… about 6 months later, ALL of the black, except a little bit around the edge, was completely gone. Just bare metal. All of it flaked off into our customers’ food.

    locuester,

    You don’t think some probably came off in the dishwasher?

    Pretzilla,

    Even so it still goes into the environment forever, per the name.

    trashgirlfriend,

    Were you scraping them with steel wool or something

    barsoap, (edited )

    Teflon isn’t heat-resistant enough to withstand proper frying temperatures for long and actual chefs are going to do an actual sear. If you want non-stick there’s carbon steel or cast iron (as well as proper technique), if you want stick-and-deglaze (yes that’s a thing) use stainless steel. All three are going to out-live your great-grandchildren.

    If you want something acid-resistant use a ceramic or stainless pan: Stuff like tomato sauce is going to strip patina off cast iron or carbon steel. Sure, you can just re-do the patina but it’s going to take some cycles before it’s up to its old non-stick properties again. Those non-stick ceramic pans are basically fancy enamel, when they lose their non-stick properties clean them with oxygen bleach that’s going to strip fatty residues out of the tiny dimples in the coating and they’ll be as good as new. Only way to really damage them is to shatter the coating.

    trashgirlfriend,

    That makes a lot of sense.

    A bit odd that a commercial kitchen would buy teflon though considering how fragile it is.

    I guess incompetent management is incompetent.

    RvTV95XBeo,

    In a commercial kitchen? I’d bet good money they were using metal utensils.

    Gladaed,

    To be fair: it is mostly inert. But using carbon steel instead has virtually 0 cost and a much longer lifespan(that yourself)

    Evil_Shrubbery,

    Yes, I never understood the problem with carbon steel cookware. Like, we achieved peak ease of overall use. I want tools like that to be always there, stay the same, and that I don’t have to ever even think about replacing it. Also its appropriate to cook anything in it.

    I’ve never done it or had the need but at most what you can do is polish the cooking surface of it somehow became scratched/rough & food gets caught in those spots. But seriously, scratching steel (in the amount that doesn’t immediately go away with normal use) is kinda hard and an achievement.

    I think part of the overall problem is that people start cooking in cold steel cookware?

    captain_aggravated,
    @captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

    PTFE, aka Teflon.

    GissaMittJobb,

    That’s where you’re wrong, bucko

    melpomenesclevage,

    Its the non-stick in the non-stick pan.

    itsnotits,

    It’s* the non-stick

    melpomenesclevage,

    I hate this keyboard. You have no idea how much.

    HessiaNerd,

    Careful what you wish for. PTFE is used in liners of a lot of life saving catheters. The stuff that goes I side your heart and brain and saves your life…

    Quereller,

    I have PTFE and PVDF in my body and I am happy about that.

    HessiaNerd,

    I’m guessing a DES (stent)?

    Quereller,

    Yes this and a hernia mesh. Guess there will come more.

    HessiaNerd,

    You’re just slowly turning into a cyborg.

    Evil_Shrubbery,

    Its about finding alternatives. Right now there is an immense economic & lobby pressure to not pursue finding alliterative materials.

    PTFE is super cheap to produce & is sold with high margins. Financially would be basically impossible to fund research for alternative material, produce it without economies of scale, compete in a saturated market, etc.

    Cases like this is exactly why we need representatives of the people to act & pass laws.

    Its like with plastic (one use?) products, the mantra was “nothing can be as good as plastic” and it took the market no time to produce better products without plastic. But there is a lot of push back, eg there is absolutely no need for paper straws to get soggy (we have the tech) yet you mostly see only the shitty kind.

    Or the example of paper industry, they had the interest to ditch plastic and they did to an extend. Those little transparent windows in envelopes are super cheap cellulose, but a decade ago they were plastic.

    Dasus,

    Actually it’s in a lot of food wrappers.

    And those aren’t as durable as cooking utensils. If you don’t scratch your pan with a metal fork and don’t use it for two decades, it’s apparently somewhat safe. Not according to the companies, I’m not shilling, Last Week Tonight had a point about it on their episode about PFA’s.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W74aeuqsiU

    I’d personally love to not consume any fucking PFAS, but I also understand that this French thing is still a massive step forwards for regulations on the matter.

    Tldr it’s still a win

    Lemzlez,

    That stuff sticks to (aka reacts with) literally nothing. That’s the point of it. The whole innovation of nonstick cookware was the fact they got it to stick to something. It’s not even dangerous if you ingest it, it doesn’t react with anything so it just comes back out.

    What IS dangerous is the by products and intermediate products, as well as the stuff that comes off if you overheat it. (And also, like you said, when they get old)

    This whole movement against non-stick is alright, but so many people do it for the wrong reasons. If you have nonstick, just use it and don’t buy nonstick next time. Throwing away perfectly fine cookware like that is like boycotting charmin by flushing down all your remaining rolls in one go and going to the store to buy new toilet paper from another brand.

    Dasus,

    so it just comes back out.

    Eh… does it?

    businessinsider.com/chart-how-long-hazardous-fore…

    It can take five hours for your body to filter half the amount of caffeine or alcohol you’ve consumed from your blood. LSD is a bit faster at three hours.

    BPA has a similar half-life to caffeine and alcohol, but arsenic can take up to 10 hours.

    Toxic metals like lead or radioactive polonium, take months to halfway leave your blood.

    But PFAS surpass all of these other substances. Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It’s no wonder they’re called “forever chemicals.”

    I still use my non-sticks, but like you said, I’m gonna buy non-PFAS cookware the next time I need to. I’m in no panic about my pans. What people probably should pay more attention to is PFAS in clothing. This might be a tad sensationalist as The Guardian often is, but eh, with a grain of salt: theguardian.com/…/fashion-chemicals-pfas-bpa-toxi…

    Lemzlez,

    Yes, the final product comes back out. The final product is PTFE, not PFAS. PTFE is harmless unless degraded or overheated (which is why you shouldn’t do that with non-stick cookware).

    To produce PTFE, PFAS are used (or are intermediaries in the process), which is why the production is dangerous, but the product isn’t.

    Dasus,

    of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It’s no wonder they’re called “forever chemicals.”

    Lemzlez,

    There’s no PTFE in that list.

    Dasus,

    So?

    We’re not talking excretion, we’re talking blood half-life.

    Too complex a distinction for a corporate shill?

    Lemzlez,

    Hey, it’s me, your friendly neighbourhood corporate shill, telling you to not buy any more nonstick cookware because I love Tefal so much. More for me!

    But seriously, I’m not disputing that the chemicals you listed are bad, just that the coating itself doesn’t affect you.

    PFAS bad, but only there during production. PTFE fine, and that’s what’s on your pan. PTFE does not get into your blood. Any PTFE you consume comes back out, because it is not PFAS.

    TL;DR: use pan until pan bad, then buy pan with no PTFE.

    Dasus,

    Do you understand the difference between excretion and half-life?

    Do you understand that anything that has a half-life of SEVERAL YEARS in the blood and is fairly novel and hasn’t been studied for long term effects of exposure on humans, should be something which you avoid having in your blood?

    It’s like when tobacco companies put asbestos in cigarettes to “filter” them.

    www.asbestos.com/products/cigarette-filters/

    But yeah, tldr I can agree with

    QuaternionsRock,

    You haven’t shown the half-life of PTFE lol

    Dasus,

    PFAS is a group of substances, not a substance.

    PTFE is Teflon. Weird how someone would shill for DuPont, right?

    theintercept.com/…/dupont-chemistry-deception/

    People like you fucking disgust me. Either you’re willfully ignorant or maliciously so. Both are equally pathetic.

    QuaternionsRock,

    Wait up, I just checked and you’re technically right - PTFE is definitely a PFAS. Dunno if it’s dangerous or frequently breaks down into dangerous PFAS, but FWIW I’ve long suspected that nonstick pans can’t be good for you. I’ve never seen a nonstick pan that doesn’t have a single scratch in anyone’s kitchen before.

    You could probably stand to improve the clarity of your arguments though haha

    People like you fucking disgust me. Either you’re willfully ignorant or maliciously so. Both are equally pathetic.

    Not gonna get very far talking to people like that. Lucky for you I empathize with your intentions,

    Liz,

    I hate to step in here, because I fear you’re not interested in a discussion, but chemistry is very sensitive to small changes. You can’t just notice that two chemicals are related or similar and assume they behave similarly in all situations. It literally takes a degree in chemistry to look at a molecule and start making guesses about its properties.

    Then we throw in the fact that we’re interested in how these chemicals behave inside your body and it becomes a whole other level of complex. Guessing is practically out the window, as far as I’m concerned, unless you’ve got some key functional group that stays consistent and exposed whose interactions you already understand. Your body has so many different chemical systems you just plain can’t assume similar chemicals will have similar behavior.

    Dasus,

    Hate to step in here, but you both think PFAS is a substance. It’s a group of substances that INCLUDES PTFE.

    You’d have better luck of “uhm actuallying” a sixth third grade lesson.

    Liz,

    Yeah that’s a good point, that’s my bad. Polymers isn’t my specialty.

    Scribbd,

    […] and don’t use it for two decades, […]

    You mean that a pan has to age? Or is it a burn.

    Dasus,

    My point was that when the pan gets old and the non-stick parts starts going, you shouldn’t still keep it for 10 years afterwards.

    It’s a pretty common thing I’ve seen, people not bothering to buy new pans when old ones get worn out.

    So if one is trying to avoid exposure, keep your pans in good shape

    Scribbd,

    Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

    It read like we should age the pans before use like a fine wine. But this makes way more sense.

    Sylvartas,

    Meh. It’s not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as the non-stick surface starts to show signs of scraping…

    If you want to avoid this problem altogether you can just buy cast iron or enameled pans. But enamel is a lot stickier (and heavier) than teflon

    johannesvanderwhales,

    The problem is that non-stick has been marketed heavily to the point that the majority of cheap pans are non-stick, even though there’s many purposes they’re not suitable for. For example they shouldn’t be used for high heat cooking, but how many people don’t know that? And they’re extremely toxic if the surface is chipped. Using the wrong utensils on the can chip them. Plus, there’s a number of pans out there that make it look like they’re a different material, but actually it’s just the same thing rebranded. So even if people are using them wrong, it’s very understandable why someone who’s a casual cook wouldn’t realize that they’re endangering themselves by using the pans wrong.

    Sylvartas,

    Yeah believe me I know all about that. My dad is a materials scientist and has been rambling about us eating Teflon for a few decades now. Using metal utensils with the non stick pans is one of the few ways to truly get yelled at in my parents’ house

    OhmsLawn,

    Adding carbon steel to this, because I love my pan, and my mother-in-law (who lives to cook) can use it without arthritis pain. She always used to complain about the cast iron hurting her joints when she lifted our other pans.

    What I’m also curious about is the ceramic coated pans. I’ve seen them advertised (I think Green Pan, whatever). I would like a lighter alternative to Le Crouset that I could cook acidic foods in.

    AA5B,

    I’m somewhat curious as well, but that’s when I reach for stainless over cast iron. There’s a balance there: I think some people overreact when usually cooking acidic stuff is no problem. Of course I also don’t cook long simmering stuff like pasta sauce so I don’t need to pay much attention.

    I do also use a crock pot, which is ceramic and has at least some overlap with long cooking acidic foods that may be tainted by stainless or cast iron

    I only know what I’ve read online about ceramic:

    • generally very safe and non-reactive
    • almost as non-stick as non-stick
    • a few cheap Chinese knockoffs leached metals but this really shouldn’t be a problem
    • harder to damage with utensils than non-stick
    • however they don’t last longer, may even be shorter.

    My decision was based on wanting something more permanent so I didn’t have to buy it again, and it’s nice to be able to rediscover metal utensils

    AA5B,

    It’s not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as …

    Yeah, I was also in no panic but

    • it’s not that dangerous in the short term, but it stays long term and long term accumulation is still unknown
    • toxic waste during manufacture is dangerous - let’s just not do that
    • I was annoyed having to replace the non-stick every ten years or so. It may be cheap to buy but it’s expensive over time
    • no one follows through with tossing as 🔜 as there are signs of damage or flaking. Pretty much all of us have eaten more Teflon than we should and keep adding more and more

    So now I have good stainless and cast iron for about the same price but it could potentially last the rest of my life: reducing toxic chemicals from manufacturing, reducing the amount of forever chemicals accumulating in my body, and saving me money. Even better, by paying attention to the quirks of effective use of these pans, I’ve become a better cook and find the cleanup usually no worse than non-stick

    Sludgehammer,
    @Sludgehammer@lemmy.world avatar

    Eh, at least this will reduce the amounts of PFAS being produced. I mean, teflon pans at least actually have a useful purpose, rather than things like PFAS coated burger wrappers.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Barely useful. Stainless steel and cast iron can achieve an almost equal non-stick effect, and handle much higher temperatures without toxic offgassing or stuff chipping off and ending up in the food.

    Leaden flatware works too, but why use it when we have ceramic?

    Teflon isn’t necessarily even easier to use than cast iron or stainless steel, I think the main issue there is that the education around how to use cookwear is very poor. It’s not just pop on the stove and go.

    Sludgehammer,
    @Sludgehammer@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, I’ve never liked teflon either. The coating always seems to get scratched up no matter how careful you are with it (and some of those flakes end up in your food). But some people swear by it, so I could see them getting angry about a ban.

    BakerBagel,

    I’ve been auper happy with my ceramic pans the past couple years. Seems like nothing stocks to those bad boys

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    A dear friend of mine keeps birds, and she exclusively uses ceramic cookware. She swears by it, and honestly I get it.

    locuester,

    Are the birds she keeps relevant to the ceramic pan discussion?

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes! Teflon offgasses when heated up, and birds have extremely sensitive lungs. They die really fast from the gases.

    You know the expression “canary in the coal mine”, right? It’s because caged canaries were used to detect methane or carbon monoxide. If the canary died, it’s time to get the hell outta there.

    This is a problem with self-cleaning ovens as well. So if you keep birds, avoid non-stick and don’t use the self-cleaning function of the oven unless your bird is out of the house and in a well-ventilated spot because it’s quite likely to kill it.

    barsoap,

    Ceramic is basically fancy textured enamel. They do gunk up after a while, just clean with oxygen bleach.

    Drusas,

    Carbon steel can, too. Plenty of non-nonstick options. And, amusingly enough, many of the highest quality of these items are produced in France.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    I’d completely forgotten about carbon steel, but you’re right!

    barsoap,

    De Buyer Mineral B: Inexpensive and very very very decent.

    JackFrostNCola,

    I feel like ‘very very very decent’ is pretty close to ‘good’

    barsoap,

    Actually better than that, I’m also happy with those two pans I got off the Aldi centre isle for 10 bucks. The De Buyer seasons easier but the cheap ones are good enough if you know what you’re doing, only reason I’m not recommending bargain deals is because De Buyer has a known quality while the centre isle does not. Also the handles are quite simple (two loop ones), OTOH that means it fits even small ovens and keeps to itself on the stove, no handle wrangling needed. No good for flipping things, though, and have a kitchen towel at hand to not burn yourself.

    Drusas,

    They make such fantastic carbon steel pans. Reasonably priced, can take a good beating, and last a good long time. There's a reason you see them in professional kitchens a lot (pay attention to the pans used on cooking shows or if you're sitting in a restaurant where you can see the people cooking and you'll recognize a certain "standard" De Buyer pan).

    Kusimulkku,

    Almost as good and much bigger pain to use? Yeah, great deal lol

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    It really isn’t that big a pain if you know how to use them. Carbon steel is also a fantastic option.

    Kusimulkku,

    if you know how to use them

    Right

    Drusas,

    You really think it's that hard for somebody to learn to scrub something with salt instead of soap, or to let a pan heat up before you put stuff in it? You must hang around some dumb fucking people.

    KRAW,
    @KRAW@linux.community avatar

    You’re ironically perpetuating a myth that cast iron needs special care. You can clean cast iron with soap just like anything else. You just have to make sure it isn’t wet for extended periods of time

    Drusas,

    I was trying to keep it brief. It doesn't usually need the special care, but it's still easy.

    SeekPie,

    IIRC there’s a specific kind of soap that strips the seasoning off cast iron pans, but idk, if they still make them.

    barsoap,

    Yes it’s called soap. Soap is made by mixing a base with fat, and the end result will still be basic. Washing-up liquid isn’t soap, though, it’s SLS, pH-neutral.

    Still it’s plainly not necessary to use that on pans: First off, if you know what you’re doing (first heat up, then add oil, then fry) things won’t stick in the first place, if they do, deglazing will take it off, and if you’re not deglazing with wine or such to get a sauce (for which stainless is the better option because you get more stick) some water will do.

    My routine is: Shovel dish onto plate, take the pan to the sink, pour in some water, scrub a bit with a brush, at that point the pan is clean. Put back on the hot plate, add a drop of oil, spread it with some kitchen tissue. The residual heat will make the water evaporate and the oil prevents rusting, it’s also going to be the source of new patina for the next heat-up cycle. The right amount of oil coating to apply is “try to get it all off with the tissue”.

    And if you think that’s unhygienic may I remind you that the thing gets sterilised every single use: Heat up the pan past smoking point (you’ll see the still existing oil coating get dull), add oil and immediately whatever you want to fry.

    Oh and get yourself a stainless steel spatula. Practically impossible to find in the kitchen isle nowadays, have a look at the grill section. Plastic doesn’t take heat well, wood tends to be annoyingly thick. I even sharpened mine so I can use it to cut stray too-big pieces in the pan easily.

    BakerBagel,

    So you are worried about soap affecting the seaosning on your cast iron, but are fine with stainless steel utensils stripping it all off? You wouldn’t wash your plates and dishes with just hot water and some light scrubbing, so don’t wash your pans that way. Modern dish soap wont do anything to harm your pans and even extend the longevity since they take off leftover food particles that house all sorts of microbes.

    barsoap,

    So you are worried about soap affecting the seaosning on your cast iron, but are fine with stainless steel utensils stripping it all off?

    No I’m not worried. Stripping or weakening patina is a thing that should be avoided but occasionally happens. Taking care of the patina is a matter of convenience, comparable to cleaning your plates before they’re crusty: Both situations can be fixed, by re-seasoning and heavy scrubbing respectively.

    You wouldn’t wash your plates and dishes with just hot water and some light scrubbing, so don’t wash your pans that way.

    First off yes I do if there’s no grease to get off, secondly plates and dishes don’t get heat-sterilised on every use.

    Modern dish soap wont do anything to harm your pans and even extend the longevity since they take off leftover food particles that house all sorts of microbes.

    Dish soap is good against fat, it allows it to enter emulsion with water. It does nothing to starches which are already perfectly soluble in water, and preciously little to proteins which tend to have quite good solubility in water.

    Not using soap has two principal reasons: a) it’s unnecessary, boiling water already takes everything off but the grease and b) I’m going to add some oil afterwards anyway why take off all the grease? If I’m just a bit lucky I don’t need that extra drop of oil at all what stays on the pan is sufficient.

    all sorts of microbes.

    Oh no! Do you have allergies? Other kinds of autoimmune disorders? I don’t. You can bet your ass that I scrub everything that has touched raw meat thoroughly (short of the pan that gets sterilised by frying), but don’t expect me to use soap on a plate with breadcrumbs and a spot of jam on it.

    BakerBagel,

    Microbes dont just make you sick by infections. They produce plenty of nasty toxins,most famously botulism, that make you ill, and only incineration is hot enough to make them safe. There is no extra effort to wash your plates and dishes with a little soap, and plenty of downsides not to.

    barsoap,

    Most famously clostridium botulinum is an anaerobic bacterium: It can’t live in the presence of oxygen (though the spores are ludicrously hardy, yes). You should be more worried about your bottles of oil than your plates. Especially if you put chilli or basil or garlic or such in that oil, that’s when you actually need to worry: Anerobic environment, food for the bacterium, also, source for the bacterium (if you’re unlucky). That’s why one shouldn’t keep pesto Genoese around for too long, eat it before c. botulinum had time to produce non-negligible amounts of toxin, whether it happens to be in your pesto or not.

    Don’t pretend like you know what you’re talking about that’s some true-crime level of bug paranoia you have there.

    BakerBagel,

    Yeah, borax soap that no one uses anymore because it just destroys everything. Whatever soap you use to clean everything else is perfectly safe for a cast iron pan.

    You wouldn’t wash a spoon or a plate with just hot water, so don’t wash your pans with only hot water either

    Kusimulkku,

    Yeah

    revelrous,

    Cast iron: cook a load of bacon bacon before you try making tomato sauce and don’t put it in a dishwasher. Trying not to scratch Teflon is way more of a pain.

    Kusimulkku,

    We just have plastic and wood utensils for cooking. I guess it would be a pain if you had metal ones

    kbotc,

    I just would probably avoid a tomato sauce in cast iron, high carbon steel, or aluminum pans. That’s what stainless is for.

    barsoap,

    It’s fine if you’re quick about it, or if you’re willing to re-do the patina. That is, there’s a huge difference in stripping between frying up some cut-up tomatoes a minute before you dump noodles into the pan, and reducing a tomato sauce.

    fidodo,

    I use all those pans and love them but I have never gotten them to be remotely non stick for low heat cooking. They’re great at searing, and you should never sear in a non stick, but for low heat cooking I haven’t found anything that remotely comes close to Teflon.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s fair, I just kind of put up with the fact that they don’t.

    fidodo,

    I like french omelets and haven’t once come close to being able to make one successfully on anything but a non stick pan. Even chefs like Jacques Pepin uses them for dishes like that, and a lot of french dishes are low heat, so I understand why they’d want pans that can perform well for that. Personally, I’ve had my non sticks for many years now and they’re still in great condition because I take care of them. I don’t overheat them, I only use silicone or wood on them, and I hand wash them (because dishwashers can’t physically scrub, dishwasher detergents have abrasives in them to dislodge food from surfaces which will scratch up the pan and make it deteriorate. It’s also why you don’t put knives in the dishwasher.). Every time I’ve been over at someone’s house with bad quality non stick pans and observed them cook, they’ve been doing everything wrong, metal utensils, high heat, dishwasher. Those things will destroy your pans immediately, and you’re not going to know that unless you’re already into cooking, and another part of the problem is that the people who will benefit from the pans the most, are also people who aren’t good at cooking yet. Used correctly, they’re still a very good tool to have in your arsenal for many dishes for even an experienced cook.

    I do think it’s a big problem that people use the pans incorrectly all the time, it’s bad for the environment to not take care of the stuff you own and have to trash them early, but that’s true in general. In the case of non stick pans it’s extra bad because of the chemicals used in them and that they also will impact your health since the fumes that can be produced by using them wrong is dangerous, so maybe these pans need to come with instruction manuals, or maybe people are just too irresponsible for us to have nice things, but I personally really like them for a lot of specific dishes that they excel at, all dishes that require non stick at low heats.

    TaintPuncher,

    Exactly, this’ll limit the exposure to them in things you wouldn’t expect them to be on/in. You can avoid Teflon pans and go iron or steel but the amount of stuff coated in PFAS is ridiculous. Hell, even sofas, rugs, blinds, etc all sorts of stuff. And before anyone says “you don’t eat that stuff”, try telling my toddlers that! I bought a black milk frothing jug for my espresso machine. The black coating? Teflon. Not mentioned anywhere, not even marketed as non-stick.

    Evil_Shrubbery,

    Yes, any positive change is good.

    Its just that economy/corporations are politically too powerful to make changes at speed we actually can (phase out PFAS). So the process is slower. And people die for profits of some, not to mention accumulation of that nasty stuff in various natural habitats.

    _haha_oh_wow_,
    @_haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.works avatar

    This seems pretty stupid, just use carbon steel or cast iron: They both work great and don’t poison everyone!

    Player2,

    Both of these do require more maintenance and patience than nonstick, which will inevitably make some people upset

    Gladaed,

    Only if you are putting the nonstick into the dishwashee.

    Player2,

    Cast iron and to a lesser extent carbon steel require special considerations for seasoning, none of them are dishwasher safe. Stainless steel doesn’t really need seasoning but is significantly easier to get high protein food stuck on than PTFE

    barsoap,

    Getting things stuck is the point of stainless steel, things getting stuck means more goodness in the sauce you create by deglazing it.

    Player2,

    For meats yes, for everything else no.

    chonglibloodsport,

    Unless you’re cooking eggs. Getting your eggs horribly stuck to a stainless steel pan is a total nightmare!

    RvTV95XBeo,

    I don’t fully agree with this, I’ve had nonstick pans in the past, and I had to baby the shit out of them to make sure they didn’t scratch, and they can only really be used in certain applications (never in the oven, don’t preheat, etc.)

    I tossed my cast iron pan into a 800 degree pizza oven the other day and did not worry about anything. I beat the crap out of it with metal utensils, that are sturdier and better than their plastic counterparts, and it comes out smiling.

    Yes I do have to hand wash it, but even that is easier because I can scrape any stuck on food off with a metal spatula or chainmail scrubber. If that’s a deal breaker, just go stainless and move on.

    Player2,

    100% but many people don’t care about this stuff at all. They will happily toss their nonstick pan in the dishwasher, ruining it, and then buy a new one a year or two later when it doesn’t work properly anymore, or just suffer with it and conclude that they are bad at cooking. When you try to discuss seasoning, hand washing, and the intricacies of frying pan materials, their eyes immediately glaze over. Nonstick pans have the advantage of just working when you get a new one, and that is really appealing to someone with low cooking knowledge or interest.

    Evil_Shrubbery,

    I feel like marketing did a number on us.

    These things are branded as ‘non-stick’ like steel is ‘do-stick’? And people just accepted that?

    Evil_Shrubbery, (edited )

    ‘More maintenance’ than going to the store to buy new cookware every 6 months?

    And I don’t really maintain my steel cookware, aside from putting it in & out of the dishwasher.

    SnokenKeekaGuard,
    @SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Fucking teflon lobbying wins wtf

    saltesc,

    Stoneware ftw. Couldn’t pay me to go back to Teflon.

    refurbishedrefurbisher,

    Cast iron FTW. Seasoning makes it non-stick, and it’s so much easier to clean compared to other cookware, not to mention it holds a fuckton of heat to give everything a nice sear, and I can put it in the oven.

    I’ve never used stone pans, though, so IDK how they compare.

    saltesc,

    Ah, yep. All my camping gear is cast iron (except the compact stuff for hiking/light camps.

    Honestly, the most satisfying part is reseasoning. “Yeeeeah. Get in there you deliciousness. So long as we got each other, you don’t ever have to worry about rust. Now let me shove this lamb shank in you and drop hot coals on your lid. I’ll see you in three hours for cleanup and some more oiling.”

    uninvitedguest,
    @uninvitedguest@lemmy.ca avatar

    Do tell. Stoneware as a brand name, or material?

    Ghostling,

    Dunno if it’s what they are talking about, but I bought a set of the GraniteStone brand and fell in love. So much so that I bought a complete second set and a giant frying pan, lol

    HaywardT,

    I’ll bet that is a brand of PFA

    RvTV95XBeo,

    Probably not, I’m guessing it’s a ceramic coating similar to GreenPan (greenpan.us/…/faqs-is-greenpan-cookware-healthy-t…)

    Note: I admittedly do not know enough about ceramic coatings to be able to say if they’re any better, but generally speaking they’re typically free from PFAS/PFOA/plastics

    evranch,

    The secret of these coatings, which is deeply buried and requires some research, is their “sol-gel” structure.

    Basically they are like a sintered bronze “oilite” bushing, where oil is stored in the pores between the bronze to lubricate the surface.

    In this case the oil is silicone oil, and while it performs amazingly and is totally inert and harmless it sets a lifespan for the pan. Once the oil is depleted, the pan is worthless.

    I’ve gone back almost entirely to cast iron and stainless steel, though I do have one Greenpan that I save for scrambled eggs and similar.

    T156,

    In this case the oil is silicone oil, and while it performs amazingly and is totally inert and harmless it sets a lifespan for the pan. Once the oil is depleted, the pan is worthless.

    Could you not re-oil the pan like you do with steel and iron pans?

    evranch,

    Unfortunately not as the oil is impregnated into very small pores during manufacturing. This is the “sol-gel” part of the process, a way of creating a solid and liquid in very close contact.

    The oil is effectively bonded to the surface creating a “permanent oil film” which is why it works so well. You can think of the long tails of the silicone molecules being trapped in the pores.

    However once they escape there’s no putting them back. Seasoning cast iron is a totally different process involving polymerizing light oils into a solid coating.

    Pretzilla,

    Doubt the manufacturer’s website is trustworthy

    RvTV95XBeo,

    “Squishy” claims like “healthy” or “better” are always iffy, but objective testable claims like PFAS-free are generally pretty trustworthy, as they can be easily disproven and open the company up to significant liability.

    Sure they could be leaving out a million bad things that ARE in it, but the person I was replying to was specifically taking about PFAS, which are generally not found in ceramic nonstick coatings.

    jose1324,

    Actual truly ceramic coatings are leagues better than teflon. They just nonstick a little worse and get stickier with abuse, instead of flaking off

    HaywardT,

    Ceramic is just a buzzword these days. Look at ceramic coating on cars, as on example.

    saltesc,

    Granite and ceramics. Can’t go back. Cook an omelette in a stone pan and your mind will be blown . Super even heat, obviously very tough (yeeeeeears of life), and that egg will slide onto your plate without leaving a trace. Teflon and steel feels like those things humans do where we invent something despite the real solution having always been there all along.

    Sylvartas,

    I’m more of an enameled cast iron enjoyer myself

    evranch,

    I own some enameled iron but find it’s only good for things like spaghetti sauce that attack exposed iron, and deglaze stuck material on their own.

    Otherwise everything sticks to it terribly compared to regular seasoned iron.

    Do you have a trick to avoid this? I’ve tried all manner of oils as well as lethecin spray, nothing seems to work for me.

    Sylvartas, (edited )

    Not really, it is quite terribly sticky. But it will outlast you, and heats up more or less uniformly. Also it’s great for stuff that is better served warm because you can make a huge pot of it and the thermal inertia of the pot will keep it warm for a while

    Also idk if you know this already, but I found that usually, heating some water in it for a while (a good 30 mins, you don’t need to bring the water to a boil either), will help a fair bit with the cleanup of some sticky residues.

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