Fuck them. Starting a private company and then selling it to some tool doesn’t make these guys great people. They exploited their employees and sold the company to some guy to exploit some more. I’m not sympathizing with capitalists because of other capitalists.
yeah fair enough. that still implies that there’s something great about founding Tesla. Which could be great, if the founders had sold the company to its employees and made it a co-op!
No government can exist without surpluses generated by the population. There have never been surpluses, except maybe in a few golden areas of abundant rain, without some form of trade and profit i.e. capitalism
Yeah people like to save money and that’s what banks invest and offer interest on. They then hand out loans with higher interest than they pay to savers. I’m pretty sure that’s already how banks work.
I’ve been trying to figure out how to get the worker-owned cooperative model to take over for the capitalist model for a long time. It just seems to be a better outcome for everyone. You can’t squeeze the worker to extract wealth for the shareholders if the only shareholders are the workers. No need to squeeze the customers if there’s no hedge fund bros expecting a 20% return on their capital. But how often are workers going to have the money lying around to buy their company?
The workers may not have been interested in buying and as much as we may hate exploitation by capitalist pigs, it’s unrealistic to expect entrepreneurs to just give it all away. I think we’re still a ways off from the appetite for revolution is large enough to just take it from them. And I’m not sure that would be the right thing to do anyway. We do need people with the skill set to organize businesses and envision products and services. We just don’t need to keep treating such people as demigods. That would be enough revolution for me and they could still be the rich people, just not so grotesquely wealthy while people who make it all possible are struggling.
What I’m thinking of is like an investment fund that provides low-cost financing for groups of employees who are looking to buy their boss’s business, or for start-ups that are looking to organize their business as a worker-owned cooperative. Of course by definition this fund would earn less than market rates. Providing low cost financing is just providing low return investment opportunity from the other side. So investing in it would be more of a charitable contribution than an investment. But I don’t think the system is in place to facilitate financing of worker-owned cooperatives at present. I think a better use of our energies would be to figure out how to make such a framework than just screaming at capitalists. Just my take.
It may not describe financiers. I’d say it’s a fair description of entrepreneurs. Just because some people do it poorly doesn’t mean it’s not a skill. Kind of argues that it is, actually. I wholeheartedly agree that having the most money is a horrible qualification for the job. But I maintain that it does need to be done. Myself I would prefer more of the decision making to be collectivized but I don’t think the concept of having business leaders is entirely outmoded.
Edit: plus I was on a bit of a tangent when I wrote that sentence anyway. I need to get better at self-censoring. The point was about how best to be able to serve society’s needs without relying upon rentiers to furnish the means.
People often imagine things they don’t do can’t be that hard. Marketing is important because no one will be interested in your product if no one knows about it. Being able to envision products that the average person will want is another one that good business leaders often do.
Steve Jobs, for example, was very good at envisioning what people would be interested in. From the Apple to Macs to the iPod to the iPhone, he hit a lot of winners. This isn’t an endorsement for him owning the company, or even as a person, but he undeniably had a skillet that others around him often lacked.
I dunno man, I’m really skeptical of Steve Jobs as a big “ideas guy” and I’d probably attribute most of Apple’s success to Steve Wozniak. I’d also wager that the pocket computer + phone revolution was probably inevitable at the point where the iPod and iPhone were coming out, and more long term, Apple’s success in that domain has done a lot of damage to the market with their “trend setting” behaviors.
Steve Wozniak was an amazing computer geek, and designed an incredibly useful computer for the time. Steve Jobs popularized and marketed the idea. He didn’t do a lot on the technical side. There was the Blackberry and resistive touch phones before the iPhone, and they had serious problems. Anyone could have made the first smartphone - Windows Mobile was released in 2003 and certainly had the money to take on this project - but Apple did. And yes, Apple did a lot to make it painful for their customers to stray from the Apple ecology to the company’s benefit, and the detriment to the market as a whole, which is pretty on-brand for Jobs.
yeah turns out I was misinformed. my bad. But point still stands, they made a private company designed to exploit workers, and some asshole took it over.
Starting a private company and then selling it to some tool doesn’t make these guys great people.
Where are you coming up with your narrative about him selling?
“The Tesla cofounder lost his role as CEO of Tesla about three years after Elon Musk began investing in the electric-car maker. Eberhard previously told Insider that Musk and Tesla’s board had met behind his back and voted to replace him as CEO.”
Elon is a jackass who runs over all normal senses of decency while repeatedly getting away with it. And he will continue to do so as long as his legion of asshole internet followers continue to worship him on a wide scale, giving him large benefits in our cultural zeitgeist.
I am happy that people are finally understanding how much of an asshole Elon is today. But he’s been pulling this shit since the dawn of Tesla, as the Tesla takeover court cases proved in the 00s.
Elon threw money at the problem and it worked, as it so often does. Conversely, the tactic failed in the Twitter scenario. That’s his entire game plan for everything, a trait he shares with nearly every other person born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
Starting a private company and then selling it to some tool doesn’t make these guys great people.
Engineering a practical prototype for an electric sports car in the year 2003 makes you pretty cool, if nothing else.
Lacking the easy access to low-interest credit and being hedged out of the SUV-heavy American car market doesn’t make them bad people.
They exploited their employees and sold the company to some guy to exploit some more
The company had exactly three people in it when Elon Musk arrived with $6.5M in Series A investment cash. They were both forced out of the company in 2008, as the Series B funding was exhausted and Elon was leveraging his fundraising clout to monopolize control of the board. This was long before the Gigafactory and the big labor abuses we’re familiar with today.
I wouldn’t call them geniuses or pretend they were irreplaceable. These were a couple of car hobbyists who stumbled into a cut-throat industry and got their work snatched out from under them.
But then I wouldn’t call the Tesla a particularly amazing piece of technology. Just something a couple of car hobbyists realized was possible with existing technology and made a (small) fortune scaling up.
The real genius in the end was scamming the Department of Energy out of billions of dollars and helping gas guzzlers fake their EV quota.
For what it’s worth, it’s been suggested that Musk’s takeover of Tesla was opportunistic, and against the desire of Tarpenning and Eberhard.
From my research, Tarpenning was pressured into quitting, and Eberhard was fired by the board of directors for lying to the board. Since Elon was chairman of the board at the time, it’s plausible (and even hinted at) that Elon played dirty to push through this firing.
I cannot say for sure if they would have handled the company more ethically then Musk, but I am personally uncomfortable hanging them out to dry simply on what could have been.
That said, I agree that employee co-ops are a top tier business organization structure.
They still sold out so that Nikola’s name could be dragged down to hell while they sip drinks on the beach. The cost to the rest of us is incalculable.
Cost? With the awesome Kung-Fu powers programmed into your mind you can manifest epic clothes like these at will. You just have to cross your arms into a super rad X-shape while you do it.
The War of the Currents was Edison and Westinghouse. The elephant was executed by the ASPCA and filmed by the Edison Studios years after, that company had been sold by Edison years before. The payment argument was Tesla and a manager.
Tesla and Edison wrote each other personal letters and spoke well of each other in public years later.
Interesting, I even did quick search before posting that to see if I was right. Upon more searching, their rivalry does indeed seem to be more of an urban legend.
It’s definitely at least “Internet Lore” at this point? I mean the car company isn’t a namesake for no reason. I don’t want to give The Oatmeal too much credit but it seems to have been the meme generator for a lot of ‘the legend’ on the web, though it’s been kind of a counter-culture staple basically since he died.
IDK, just one of those things that I got interested enough to read actual books about awhile ago and it’s kind of scary how much “common knowledge” is more “common mythology”.
Agreed on Tesla’s legend. Telsa was terrified of fat women and talked to pigeons. He also didn’t even understand the concept of transistors, let alone microchips. And yet we’re supposed to believe he invented all these amazing things that approach magic in their abilities and utility?
Tesla died a poor man 4 years before bell labs created the first transistor.
The microchip was invented about 15 years after he died.
Perhaps he would have understood or even created these concepts if he had the funding he probably should have given his remarkable successes and contributions to the entire field of electrical engineering when he was still able to contribute. But unlikely sure. Not why you sre saying these weird things
He was not able to effectively continue to experiment and research. Because he may have worked with some of the people who worked on those projects, or at least had a connection to them, and also he may have lived a hell of a lot longer if he wasnt poor. Its not good for your health
So if he didnt get screwed over the way he did he would have lived differently.
Also a concept can exist decades before it is proven.
Dude had a brilliant mind and was a genius. Money allows you to persue the things you want in a way that being poor simply does not allow.
He WAS rich for a long time. He died poor because he lost all the money on his ‘wireless electricity’ idea that noone wanted to fund, because they knew it’s not going to work. Tesla didn’t know that. You know why? Because he sucked ass at physics. That’s also why he would have never understood the concept of a transistor.
Please stop spreading misinformation about Tesla being some misunderstood genius screwed over by greedy corporations. He was not. He screwed himself over.
Marconi became rich and famous, the “inventor of the radio.” It didn’t matter that he had been using Tesla’s technology. After Tesla’s death, the Supreme Court would even rule that Tesla had a better claim to the patents — but it was too late.
His loss in the race for the radio would send Nikola Tesla on a long downward spiral from which he would never recover. Combined with his other failures and his struggles with what we would probably identify today as obsessive-compulsive disorder, Tesla descended into a tailspin at the end of his life.
My opinion about him getting screwed is this. You will have to show me this is misinformation if you want me to change my mind as believing this is my kyptonite if im wrong. But I havent seen anyone prove this wrong yet.
You honestly have a chance to change my mind here if you are willing to help me out, but ive put what i consider a reasonable effort into forming my opinion so its now on you to show me the error of my ways and im giving you the spot I think is easiest.
Ball is in your court friend
Edit: adding source i quoted from. Fyi its just the first article i found after the above reply to quote with, it is not the only reading that forms my opinion
You kind of stumped me at first, didn’t think you were referencing Marconi. I was almost ready to give in, but then I went looking for that court judgment. I believe it’s this one. Lemme just quote you one fragment of the attached opinion:
Marconi’s reputation as the man who first achieved successful radio transmission rests on his original patent, which became reissue No. 11,913, and which is not here in question. That reputation, however well deserved, does not entitle him to a patent for every later improvement which he claims in the radio field.
It seems like this case wasn’t about his original patent whatsoever, only his later claimed improvement to it. Yes, the later one was invalidated, but the original was not. And it also looks like they focus more on patents of Stone and Lodge, only sporadically mentioning Tesla. They even state that wireless communication wasn’t even the primary purpose of the Tesla aparatus, it was actually for his wireless energy stuff, altough he did mention it could be used for that.
So I stand by my opinion. Marconi didn’t really screw over Tesla, altough it seems he did screw over Stone and Lodge.
Altough I admit I might be wrong, it’s very hard to look up anything on Tesla and get objective results. Also, after spending an hour reading a 70 year old court case about patent infringment I decided I should probably find something better to do with my time and can’t be fucking bothered anymore.
Here’s a great in-depth video on Edison and his relationship with Tesla. It seems that Edison was actually remarkably progressive for the time in a lot of ways, and, while not perfect, he seems to have been a much better employer than many of his rivals.
Edit: Lol and then like ten hours after this comment they dropped a four and a half hour video going into much more detail about both.
Would Elon have fried an elephant with a Tesla car battery nowadays just to make a point how bad the competition is?
Well I bet he would.*
Edison had technically nothing to do with the killing of Topsy, it was a decade after the 'war of the currents'. It was distributed through Edison films though.
Yeah people are desperate to believe ‘Edison evil, Tesla jesus’ it’s so weird. I get that it was like a cool fact online twenty years ago but there have been so many actual historical documentaries showing how complex and interesting the real story was.
Truth is neither of them invented anything from scratch, - AC generators, motors (useless), transformers, and lights were in use before Tesla even began his big invention. He was a name in a long list of people who worked together understanding the newly emerging field of electronics - if Westinghouse or Barrington had made outrageous claims to allure conspiracy theories then they might have got the Tesla treatment by thy internet instead and we’d only hear of Tesla in the science museum while they’d be regarded at saintly heros of science.
I like Tesla but there are so many interesting stories
if Westinghouse or Barrington had made outrageous claims to allure conspiracy theories then they might have got the Tesla treatment by thy internet instead and we’d only hear of Tesla in the science museum
Hey now, you get to hear about Westinghouse plenty in the railroad museums. A variation of the Westinghouse brake design is still in use on modern trains to this day
electrocuting an elephant to death, and for no better reason than tabloid advertising, kind of stands out in the historical record
that’s not to say Edison was PURE EVIL, just that I always remember the elephant alongside the more humanizing factoids. [Once, he asked a math student to find the volume of a lightbulb. The student started doing all kinds of caliper measurements and geometry calculations. Edison just filled the bulb with sand and tipped it out into a measuring cup]
Except in realityit seems he was against the elephant being killed but said electrocution would be more humane than the hanging which had happened to ‘murderous mary’, his opinion being something the aspca also supported.
The assholes in this story are the themepark owners that upon being unable to sell Topsy decided to kill her as a spectacle to gain publicity, A previous attempt elsewhere to electrocute an elephant had failed so they also used other measures. They poisoned her. Electrocuted her and strangled her with a steam powered winch.
They did use locally supplied power from the Edson Co but this was because it was a decade after war of the currents and Edison was the main supplier of AC to NYC, they certainly weren’t trying to promote its danger. Plus he no longer owned that company, he’d sold to GE and it still used his name.
The Edison film company did film it but again no evidence the man himself was involved, they filmed short clips of specticals and news events which could be viewed in a slot machine. It’s upsetting but people were a lot less caring about animals back then, it wasn’t especially shocking that this happened or was recorded.
My brain somehow read the title as “Tesla was the Elon Musk of his era,” and I got so mad for a split second that I think I may have an aneurysm to deal with in 5 years.
And Ray Croc didn’t invent McDonald’s, but poured the foundation that McDonald’s is built on. I place Musk in a similar, although not entirely the same, category.
Reasonable minds feel free to disagree, but I’ve got to admit that I’m shocked to see the lemmy community rally around the defense of Ray Croc of all people.
Don’t forget Marconi, he was also a deeply screwed-up individual who betrayed many along the way and thus was undeserving of the Nobel Prize he did receive.
Marconi basically used the patent system to raid British research institutes, violating each and every gentleman’s agreement along the way. And he did it with money from the British postal or telegram offices, who he unceremoniously dumped on the eve of unveiling his wireless contraption.
It’s incredible. Musk held all the aces, Tesla, SpaceX, Crypto (debatable). He was viewed as a pioneer, as a philanthropist. But it seems social media fucks up every one of us. Image Nixon, it would have been immensely insightful if we had social media back then EDIT: Nixon would have been a smart Trump, fuck that timeline
It really is incredible, the potential place in history he pissed away. But I guess you can’t end up a multi billionaire if you’re the type of person that knows when it’s OK to stop.
Yeah, there were a few people who knew better that were telling everyone, but no one listened and everyone in the world was lining up to kiss his ass. Putting him in various popular movies and shows as the greatest luminary of our time. While people who knew him were writing credible reports that he is just a very lucky douche who is also a giant megalomanic.
Can’t imagine being his first wife and having her experiences and sharing those experiences and the world seeming to gaslight her that he’s actually a brilliant flawless man.
And just like Edison, Elon swooped in and bought up all their IP and took all the credit for their inventions/work.
Edison did it with Nikolas ideas when he was working for him, and now Elon did it with something that was named to honor the man.
Tesla gets shafted yet again.
I can’t help but wonder what he could have accomplished if someone, literally anyone had continued to fund him, and help him continue his efforts for the remainder of his natural life. Maybe we would be flying around in wirelessly powered personal vehicles. Who knows? But the ideas he had led to some of the most significant advances in technology for years. Pretty much our entire modern life is thanks to Tesla’s inventions, either directly or indirectly.
Even something as simple as AC electricity delivery… What a genius. Easily on the top of my list of best inventors.
His personal life and some of his opinions there may have been a bit problematic, but it would be difficult to deny that he was a brilliant inventor.
He was, but not due to his OCD. He just straight up hated women. A bit more so than every other man at the time. His autobiography gives his opinion. He hated women, especially if they wore pearls. Which may have been his mental illness flavoring the hate. He also fell in love with a pidgeon. Can’t really blame the fella. Pidgeons are very social animals. Best bird to have as a pet.
As we know edison didn’t invent the light bulb and I found this article by reuters talking about Lewis Latimer who I presume is the black man the other comment is talking about
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