I’m sure the tragic mass genocide of the polish people, the Jewish people, the mentally handicapped, the mentally ill, The romani and much much more (it’s genuinely depressing). Is very much comparable to the deportation of illegal immigrants. To an semi well off 2nd world country.
And to answer your question. no I’m not a republican (conservative) nor am I a democrat (labour ).I wouldn’t vote for dementia man nor would I vote for orange man in a billion years.
Let me lay brass tax here’s what I believe in. I would like for better civil liberties , Human rights that applies to everyone equally regardless of your politics gender race country or creed (natural rights) , first admendment rights, Castle doctrine. A free market, and property rights. I could go on but I’ll be here all day.
No, you cant have typed out that obvious sarcasm and seriously meant it. A little bit of genocide? Thats how you’re describing someone you’re voting for?
Yeah, I feel like people are freaking out and ignoring that Biden (and Trump) are largely the people they surround themselves with, and the policies they push.
I was talking to some friends and I don’t get independents at this point. If you don’t know who you’re voting for and need to see this debate to decide, you haven’t been paying attention to the past 8 years.
This isnt a dig at him but Biden probably hasnt made a single decision without heavy guidance by all the people around him. This is always the case to a degree i assume, but probably even more with senile people like him. It just makes the whole concept of a president so nonsensical.
I think the real upsetting thing isn’t Biden’s performance, or having Biden as president for four more years. He achieved quite a bit after all. The real upsetting thing is the DNC being such cunts that they even pushed for this debate, hoping that Biden could win, only to deny and ignore Biden’s abhorrent performance immediately after. That Bernie got shafted twice by them, that is the really upsetting part.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win. None of the shitty things that Trump wants to do will hurt them, (stupid take if they cared at all about their descendants but they’re either too arrogant or too ignorant to worry about that) but actual progressive policies that helped average people WOULD hurt their way of life. Marginally. Like, the tiniest little amount. Like, your yacht can only have one master bedroom instead of four. But why give that up when you don’t have to?
“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”
I’m voting for Biden though, and I’ll keep voting as progressively as possible in the down ballot elections. If a progressive movement from the bottom up can start by doing things like getting rid of FPTP, we still have a chance. And to anyone thinking about not voting, please do. The president is one person. They are the single most powerful person individually, (taking aside impact on the judicial system) but the collective impact on your day to day life is far more influenced by down ballot positions. Research your down ballot candidates and vote. Many of those races are decided by only a handful of votes. Yours matters.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win.
It’s not in their interests to let a progressive win. Just like their counterpart, the DNC takes a shit ton of bribery donations from corporations lobbyists. Bringing in a progressive who would reform the system or push back against pro-corporate policies is biting the hands that feed them.
The title of this video is “An Anarchistic Watches West Wing” or something similar. I only watched 20mins but it was good so far. It’s a criticism of the American Capitalist system, American Democracy (power of the president, presidential hero worship), etc. via the way it’s portrayed in the West Wing.
Aye. The timestamp I linked specifically talks about something talked about in this thread, which is that the DNC would rather have the far right win than move left.
I’m using my app’s built in video player and I guess it didn’t recognize the time stamp. I wanted to give people an idea of the context because I think it’s worth a watch. I’ll give that timestamped portion a watch later.
At this point I doubt tankies should be much of a concern. What are they, 1-2% of the potential Dem voter base? I’d sooner worry about the indecisive ones who have seen the performances in the debate.
They’re especially loud here because Lemmy’s developers are tankies. Some are even supposedly former Chapo Trap House peeps that got kicked off reddit. It’s the most annoying part of this place trying to be a reddit replacement. But it’s getting better with users calling them out.
What are they, 1-2% of the potential Dem voter base?
Add a .000 in front of those numbers and you might be right. If those numbers were accurate you would expect somewhere between, what…1 and 2 million tankies in the US alone?
No, see, that would mean there are people out there who disagree with me who aren’t either tankies or maga, and that impossible because that would mean… that would… oh no…
Just because you are still voting Biden, doesn’t mean you don’t care.
It just means you still don’t want the raving malignant narcissist Trump.
Any somewhat normal person would be the obvious choice over Trump. Any person who is not clearly a traitor to USA and Democracy would be preferable to Trump.
Snowden verifiably paid a higher price while serving the interests of the people. Sacrificed far more than Trump ever has or will. He was a fairly connected govt contractor living in Hawaii, living a good life before he had to flee.
I’d vote for ToS era Pike over Trump. I’d vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump. I’d vote to not have a president for 4 years before I’d vote for Trump.
It’s crazy that Trump can get convicted of fraud, be found liable for sexual assault, promise to abuse presidential power to get revenge against those who cross him, actively undermine both national and global security, promise to round up millions and put them into camps, attempt to overthrow the election and refuse to not try it again, and so on, and his side is still so loyal they’ll wear solidarity diapers for him.
Cabinet and federal appointments are the big thing. That’s why I’ll take Biden over Trump. I’m not just voting for him, I’m voting for the 4000 jobs in energy, health, labor, transportation, etc. to be run by Democrats, liberals, and qualified people.
Trump, and project 2025 plan to fill all those roles with right wing nutjobs who will do anything to please the right. On top of those 4000, they’d expand the presidential appointment power to fire up to 45% of the federal workforce. Meteorologist who said the hurricane won’t hit Alabama? GONE! Doctor who said injecting bleach was a bad idea? FIRED!
I’ll take anyone who won’t put Project 2025 in motion.
Might be a cool (edit: or probably cringy, given current democrats) meme campaign, listing all the things that are better than Trump one by one. You could have a new one every day until the election day easily.
The original image even says “don’t care, still voting trump” this is just an edit changing it to biden. Both democrats and republicans can agree on punching to the left. Of course, democrats have to use dog whistles like calling them all “tankies” just like how republicans love to discriminate against minorities while making references to them as “inner city youths” or whatever.
This is the thing. People like to blame Berniebros and whatnot for Clinton’s loss in '16, but the reality is that the centrist Democrats that vote for the party’s corporate-backed candidate wouldn’t vote for a progressive one, so even if Bernie had won the nomination, he probably still would have lost because he would have lost the support of these DNC hardliners. I heard people literally say in '16 that if Bernie had somehow won the nomination over Hillary that they would have just stayed home. It’s wild to think how ideologically balkanized the Democratic party is, with so many people fervently belonging to the leftist minority that holds their nose every election to vote for another mediocre person whose best attributes are being “not an outright fascist” versus the people who will never vote for a truly left wing candidate because they’re fiscally conservative but socially liberal and just allergic to compromising in the same way that they’ve forced the leftists in their party to do since forever.
What is sad is the American people DID vote for progressive policy. The problem is American politicians represent their donors, and turned their backs on their constituents.
There is no expectation for an elected Democrat to align with their party platform. Likewise no one can or should expect a Republican to break from their party. Any reliance on either is a fool’s errand.
I mean about 70% of Americans support at least a public option for health insurance. Yet there is no pathway forward for 70% of Americans with either party.
So it sucks that such an intransigent faction isn’t even representative.
They’re trying to conflate anyone who isn’t in full support of Biden as a tankie. It’s more of the same from the last year that’s been used to shut down any debate or criticism.
I assume you are referring to supplying weapons to Israel, in which case, do you think Trump (who called Biden a ‘Palestinian’ as an insult during the debate) will be the better choice and stop supplying weapons to Israel?
It’s just kinda dumbass, since the other guy is going to do so much worse. Like, if you value human life, you should draw the line at the putz who’s going to kill the fewest people. You can piss and moan all you want, but before you lies a binary choice. There’s nothing you can do to change that.
Hypothethical imaginary situations that are supposed to scare Leftists or other sensible individuals into toeing the dem party lines are false and useless
i keep seeing this analogy and conclusions pop up everywhere on here over the last three months and I’m think a neo-liberal developer has unleashed a host of bot accounts that parrot their party’s propaganda on Lemmy
So you actually believe that after the elections are over when one of the two candidates will inevitably win that your 3rd party vote will have done anything other than the obvious 2 things? (Either nothing or just raise trump’s chance to win). If you actually care, the sensible thing to do is make everything possible to make sure trump doesn’t win then start protesting asap and doing everything in your power for the next 4 years to make sure you get more and better options.
When did they say they were throwing their vote away or voting for trunp? You can always expect false analogies from genocidal democrats.
Political/Voting Apathy is a thing, if an individual’s interest and values don’t align with yours, you can’t expect them to support or follow your party. The Biden-led government committed a genocide, deal with the consequences
And do you really think the literal fascist will be a better option?
No? Then vote Biden.
We only have two options. There is no way around that.
Throwing your vote away is disgustingly irresponsible, and those who do are culpable for everything that follows if Trump wins.
It’s not apathy, it’s pure selfishness from those either too privileged to be seriously effected if Trump wins, or too stupid to realize the effect it will have
When Trump wins it will be your fault for not forcing Biden to drop out. Ride-or-die Biden cultists are following the leader off a cliff when they should be calling for Biden to resign now (holy SHIT he needs to resign now, this man is not able to perform his job didn’t you see?!) and for someone else to replace him at the Convention.
Do whatever you want, but don’t try to blame me for trying to force America to vote for a nursing home patient.
This is the option we have. I don’t like it either, but unless some miracle happens and the DNC gets their head out of their ass, it’s either Biden or Trump.
Refusing to vote because you’d rather stick it to Biden is not only stupid, but it’s exactly what republicans want you to do. You are inherently aiding them and Trump by doing so.
No, our option is to voice our displeasure and force the Party to capitulate to our demands.
Stop just laying down and letting them have their way with you. It’s embarrassing.
EDIT I don’t mean this to be an attack, but I just can’t get over how peasant-like your mindset is. “All we can do is support m’lord and 'ave faith in his Court, ours is not to question.” Why won’t you even try to change anything? When did you give up entirely on the concept of politics? We need to rise up and resist, not meekly obey!
I’m not “giving up”, I simply recognize the situation for what it is. I’m a realist, not a delusionist. Our situation is fucked either way, and the only choice we have is laid out plainly in front of us. We have the option of bad, or worse. I know what I’m choosing.
By all means, voice your displeasure. Attack the party, attack those that got us to this point, attack the fuckers that continually neuter any attempt at having an even somewhat decent person running this country.
We are largely on the same page. Fuck Democrats, fuck the DNC, and fuck the spineless bastards that support them.
But at the end of the day, facts are facts. We can wish the situation were different, and we can fight for a better one going forward, but this is what we’ve got right now.
So are you going to do your part in mitigating the shitshow, or will you sit in selfish apathy, willing to let the bad be worse?
I’m not “giving up”, I simply recognize the situation for what it is. I’m a realist, not a delusionist. Our situation is fucked either way, and the only choice we have is laid out plainly in front of us. We have the option of bad, or worse. I know what I’m choosing.
You are giving up, regardless of your reasoning. You think good things are impossible and we should just settle for less bad things.
This only guarantees that the worst outcome becomes inevitable. You create a shield for Democrats to hide behind that allows them to ignore calls from their base, which in turn obliterates voter enthusiasm and participation. When no one shows up to vote for your cynical candidates you have no one but yourself to blame.
You need to join us in forrcing the Democratic Party to listen to constituents or Republicans are going to win.
If you actually cared about genocide you’d get your thumb out of your ass and vote to reduce harm.
Yet you’re sitting here shitting yourself over people voting for the lesser of two evils to feel morally superior, as if that’s going to help Palestinians. Good job.
Isn’t that Biden? He sees himself as a desirable candidate and stands for his own stuff. It’s the supporters who often stand for nothing more than fascism slower.
I’m voting Brandon but let’s not pretend he didn’t shit the bed. It was fucking awful. Brandon should fuck off, but I’d vote for a corpse over any republican, and that will probably be true for the rest of my life.
It’s funny how the standard by which we judge Biden is so high, and the standard for Trump is so low. Like… “oh wow, orange man form complete sentence, he’s really killin it” vs “omg Biden stumbled over his words and had one bad night, his candidacy is over”.
Gaslight, deny, deflect. Anything to avoid facing how fucked we are.
I didn’t say were weren’t fucked to some degree of fucked. But I’m also not gonna blow it so out of proportion that I’m paralyzed and do nothing. Or worse, cry and moan and cause others to do nothing. Literally people are taking one fuck up and forgetting everything else. It’s completely buying into the false narrative pushed by the GOP and ignores all the good Biden has done and the fact that 99% of his other speeches and debates have been completely fine. Many people have been… well, played.
The only reasonable course of action at this point is to stop whining, vote for Biden, and then raise hell to demand accountability from the DNC. Make it 100% clear that we will accept nothing less than a stellar candidate in 2028. At that point the danger from Trump will have largely passed and we can move forward.
It’s not one mistake. It’s four years of obvious decline being put on stage where people have a harder time covering it up.
I don’t know if anybody wants you to worry to indecision, but it sure would’ve been nice if this had been acknowledged when it might’ve been repairable.
You’re not going to get any accountability my friend.
It’s not one mistake. It’s four years of obvious decline being put on stage where people have a harder time covering it up.
He’s an old man. Congrats on figuring that out.
As I can attest, older people in general are a little bumbly but that’s not a predictor of mental acuity or ability. It’s certainly not an indicator of dementia on it’s own.
I’ve watched many of his speeches, press conferences, etc. and I see little to no evidence of cognitive decline. What I do see is people buying into that narrative because, like all good propaganda, it taps right into their preexisting biases.
Can you help me understand what Biden meant when he shouted “We finally beat Medicare!” I found that confusing.
Have you never once in your life misspoken? Have you ever been in a super stressful situation where you knew you were being judged in every possible way by a large number of people? I confess, I have. And I have screwed up badly a number of times. Forgot what I was saying, said the wrong words… all kinds of things.
Thankfully, I was not judged on my stumbling over my words but by the substance of what I had to say and the totality of my contributions. I prefer to judge others similarly.
The issue here is that Biden has to compete for the morons in the middle who somehow can’t decide between an obvious traitor and a mediocre democrat. So he simply must perform better. The standard is truly higher for him because it takes a lot to sway the mentally defective undecideds.
That is not all where the discussion is right now. The discussion is whether Biden is the best person we have. We still can put someone else forth and now it’s the time to do it.
I don’t disagree at all that Biden should fuck off. But the point remains that the standard is higher for him than for the traitor. I was pointing out what is plain to see for the other commentator.
The talking heads said the Democratic Party rules only allow it if he steps down. Not sure if that’s correct. But either way someone needs to do something fast to right this ship.
There’s not really any swing voters who are undecided. There is a massive group that is voting for Trump, and a lot of people who would rather stay home on election day. And all year it has been “Biden needs to win” but now even the DNC is horrified that he is totally unappealing. He belongs in a hospice unit, not the White House. Biden has been like this since the 2020 primaries, just now everyone has to see how old Biden really is.
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
You have completely bought into the long GOP build up of a fundamental lie. Congrats I guess.
Edit: The thing that makes the false GOP narrative of Biden being senile and incapable SO effective is that it taps into your own prejudices. None of us really want a senior citizen as president and many younger folks believe older people to be incapable of anything more than watching TV and playing bingo. This is easily disproven but the prejudice remains. So when his horrible debate performance confirms your bias, well… of course you run with it and ignore all other evidence. Never mind that the very next day he did a great and highly energetic campaign rally… never mind that 99% of the time Biden has been on point, articulate and rarely fucked up more than could be explained by a life-long speech impediment. Nope, you all want to believe so much that old people have no business as president (a point with which I agree) that the standard by which you judge them is not a standard you would ever apply to yourself.
Worldwide website. The world leans farther left than Biden (except for the oppressive “bad” countries, most of which censor internet use, or block open communication sites like these). American conservatives are the lunatic fringe Right comparatively. I dont think bashing anti-Biden is too productive, because it doesnt allow for legitimate discourse. Given the current state of affairs, I can understand it strategically…but it leads down a bad road.
Criticize Biden all you want. But he’s not stepping down and there isn’t a good alternative this late in the game. The DNC fucked up by allowing him to run the first time and then again by not demanding he not seek re-election. Just like they fucked up by fucking over Sanders.
And yet… these are the cards we have and we’re not getting another hand. It sucks.
Newsom is an extremely savvy political operator and will not run for several reasons, but mainly he knows he’s likely up next and needs to play nice with the DNC establishment. He doesn’t need to take chances on a run against a toxic candidate when he can run in 2028 and have a much much easier time. Likely he sees the consequences of a Trump 2nd term and knows the tide will swing dramatically toward a more progressive candidate.
IMO: Harris will never in a million years run against Biden but more importantly, as fucked up as it is, a huge segment of stupid 'Mericans will never vote for a woman. So neither Harris nor Whitmer are viable options at this five-alarm fire stage.
Did you watch the debate? Can you explain to me what Biden meant by “We finally beat Medicare!” What was he trying to say? Was he trying to say “We finally beat Medicare for all!”? Because that would make sense to me.
He fucked up. And the DNC fucked up by allowing him to run a second time (or a first, in my book). But people are human, shockingly. They do fuck up and they do say incoherent things (you’ll understand when you get older, lol) and I’d rather have someone who spews gobblygook once in a while than someone who lies incessantly and spews gobblygook all the time.
Show me an alternative. Show me a viable path forward that ensures a second Trump presidency doesn’t happen. If you haven’t got that then there’s really nothing more to discuss. We’ll all hold our noses and vote for Biden and then raise hell to get a more reasonable candidate in 2028. Because at least then there will be a 2028 election.
Did you watch it? I’m 100% for the Democrats but Biden is incoherent, he is not up for the job. From what I saw he isn’t up to doing the job through November. He needs to step down immediately. If he doesn’t Trump is going to win.
Look, this is a terrible situation and the DNC is 100% responsible for fucking this up. Biden should never have sought a second term. But this is our awful reality right now and we have to deal with it in any way -that is available to us - that prevents a Trump 2nd term.
Yeah dumbass, an avowed socialist for years now, been watching the GOP propaganda machine since it was cool to be on Fark for fucks sake and NOW they finally turned my frog gay. Makes perfect sense!
Wake the fuck up you white moderate, your cope will eat us all.
There’s so much Democratic gaslighting going on now it’s ridiculous. They need to stop fucking around, put the hammer down and just run Newsom. What do the egotists like RBG and Biden think their legacy is going to be? Step out gracefully and let someone else take the reins jfc. Otherwise the legacy you leave is that you have fucked us all.
That’s fine. He surrounds himself with capable people (The other guy’s are all heading to prison and were always the most incompetent for their positions). His party is just as corpo as the other, but they will not enact Project 2025 and still have a chance at change for the better (the other party does not). One party might maintain the crappy status quo, the other will absolutely entrench and yank the country further in the wrong direction irreversibly against the will of the majority.
I’ve been flip flopping on this over the last 48 hours.
I can’t dispute that Joe doesn’t seem fit for another presidency.
That said, it sounds like it’s really up to Biden and the First Lady to decide to withdraw before anything will happen.
In the mean time, this discussion isn’t helping progressive voters. Trump will preside over an irreversible lurch to the right. Progressives need to unite behind a candidate - anyone the faintest pulse will do.
I will cast my vote between tears but nobody ever promised preserving democracy will always make you feel good.
In fact, I am close to launching into a really hard condemnation of every last one of you lazy-ass motherfuckers who expect everything to always play out like a 2-dimensional anime plot where you’re the good guy so you’re supposed to always feel good, and any struggles are easily overcome, and if it doesn’t play out like that, then you go full doomer-mode and grab your soapbox to preach how pointless life is just because you’re lonely but too scared to talk to a girl. Go back to your discord safe-spaces and let adults out here make the hard choices.
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