I still continue to fail to understand the logic these people are trying to use.
I completely understand the dissatisfaction with the Biden administration and his support for an ally who is currently committing genocide on the daily. And if there were a candidate who wasn’t a completely batshit wannabe dictator, I’d at least understand why they’d vote for anyone else over Biden, if not agree with it.
But this is not the case. What these people fail to understand because they’re literally blinded with rage is that the only other option is exponentially worse. Trump isn’t going to stop Israel from bombing Gaza into oblivion. He’s said as much. He basically wants to glass the entire area. Do these people not realize that what Trump wants to do is exponentially worse?
Voting for Trump because you don’t like Biden’s policies on Israel and Gaza isn’t shooting yourself in the foot. It’s shooting yourself in the foot, then reloading the shotgun when you realize you missed a few toes, then wondering why the hell your foot hurts and you’re bleeding all over the place.
I understand the rationale of “I cannot in good conscience vote for a man who has supported and partially funded a brutal genocide.” But at the same time, you’re advocating for a man who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”. Why?
If you think Trump is, in any situation, a viable option for anything, please seek professional help immediately. There is never a situation where Donald Trump’s decisions or actions are ever going to make your life better. Full stop.
Yet you understand the logic by Biden to not do the most obvious thing and stop supporting a genocide? Where is his urgency about US democracy? He has the power. Right now.
These people have a real reason to be angry and hold the Biden admin accountable, Biden does not have a justification for pushing ahead on his support of Israel. None.
Attempting to “hold Biden accountable” by supporting, advocating for, and voting for someone who has already gone on record as saying he wants to do even worse is probably not going to work out the way you think it will.
I understand the position that people are in. It’s pretty much Sophie’s Choice. Vote for Biden, who’s supporting an ally that is currently committing genocide, or vote for Trump, who says he’ll genocide harder. Or stay home and vote for nobody, and end up with Trump anyway. There’s no good options here. I get that.
Nobody wants to vote for a man who says “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife”. But at the same time, the counter to that isn’t to advocate for the opponent who’s saying “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife, your kids, and I’ll piss on your dog while I’m doing it.” I’m not saying I know what the best option is, but I know that Trump of all people certainly isn’t it and will just make the problem much worse.
Neither party is going to change in any real way, my only hope is that the GOP will rip itself apart and finally die the death it’s been fighting tooth and nail to delay, and then an actual left leaning party can arise in the FTTP system and the DNC can slide into the place of the more conservative of the two. At which point we can hopefully get ranked choice or star voting. A hilarious pipe dream I’m sure, and one that will take too long a time for anyone’s satisfaction. But it would take far less time for good things to happen that way that to fight out of a dictatorship, or rebuild after the country descends into civil war.
There won’t be time for the DNC to learn the lesson you want to teach them and then apply corrections, a second Trump term is a watershed moment for the future of the country, the world, and democracy. We won’t get a chance to try again in 4 years
100% I agree, I was just trying to spell out how we might still have some solid progress through them, I’m not one of the folks hesitant to vote for Biden. I don’t like him, the DNC, or that I have to do it but i understand the calculus, there’s no other option if you want to avoid catastrophe
Understood. And fundamentally I agree, it would be great if the DNC could live up to the role of opposing conservatives but we’ve got what we’ve got and trust me, we can make this worse…
Congress holds the power of the purse. If congress appropriates the money, the president is legally obligated to spend that money for the reason that it was appropriated. (It’s called impoundment of appropriated funds.) This is why Trump was impeached the first time; he tried to withhold funding from Ukraine–before Russia invaded–that had already been appropriated by congress unless he got personal quid pro quo from Zelensky. Trump did not have the legal authority to withhold that funding, and hence was impeached for corruption.
Similarly, Biden can’t withhold money appropriated for Israel. He can, at best, veto the appropriations bill, which would send it back to Congress to be overridden. (Given that it passed 79-21 in the Senate–I can find the House vote tallies at the moment–it is highly likely that his veto would be overridden.) Should he do it anyways? Sure. But it would be purely symbolic.
The only options Biden has are diplomatic, which he is exercising. He could arguably use the military to invade, but congress would pull him up short on that very fast. Could he do more diplomatically? Yes, definitely. Can he unilaterally stop Israel? Categorically no.
Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
So if they either don’t care about Palestine or want to escalate the genocide, then why the hell do they care about Biden’s handling of the situation in the first place?
At best, they should be indifferent, no?
A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
This is a classic example of voting against their own interests.
The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
This is very true. If you can say one thing about the GOP, they’re specialists at getting the message out and convincing people to vote against their own interests.
You’re failing to understand because people are near-braindead levels of stupid. Democracy only works when the populous is generally well educated. We’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot in regards to education for a long time in this country that most people come out with the intelligence of a 5th grader, then say stupid things like “Trump is better than Biden”.
And what do they think is going to happen with Trump? A man who has already gone on record saying he’d do that and more?
Like I’ve repeatedly said, I understand and even support their point of view regarding Biden. But their only alternative is exponentially worse, and voting for Trump because you’re pissed off at Biden is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
I legitimately don’t know how to handle these sorts of situations. I’ve learned that my methods don’t work on people with strong emotions on a subject without a 1 on 1 and some intoxicants.
I don’t believe this myself, but there is a not entirely ridiculous argument that when Democrats are doing the militarism against Arabs there’s no resistance at all, while when Republicans do it the Democrats (and aligned media) at least try to work against them. I don’t think that’s how it actually works out (I think the Democrats don’t really try and thus are completely ineffective), but I can see why a rational person could come to that belief.
Like take the protests right now vs. BLM. BLM wasn’t exactly a great performance by the Democrats, but there was at least some token support for the validity of their cause, but since Biden’s in power and the protests are in some part a criticism of him, everyone’s working overtime to discredit them and pretend like the only thing worth talking about it some smattering of antisemitism. There may be platitudes about having the “right to protest” while studiously avoiding referencing the reason they’re doing it, but most of the messaging is about outsider agitators, antisemitism, and violence (leaving aside that it’s mostly been committed against them).
So who’s fault is it when Trump is elected and gives Israel everything they need to make the current genocide look like a schoolyard spat by comparison?
Your logic is a prime example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Biden’s. Folks have made it clear, delete Israel or we get Trump. They are litterally willing to blow themselves up, what makes you think they won’t elect Trump first.
You’re upset with Biden for not doing more to stop the genocide in Israel, so in response you’re going to elect someone who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”?
It would be one thing if the Republican candidate were someone who was pro-Palestine. But this? This is like standing in front of the firing squad, and your last words being an objection not because you’re innocent, but because those carrying out your execution don’t have big enough guns.
No, it’s more like declaring that if they’re going to shoot me, I’ll convince them to shoot you next. You’re suddenly a lot more motivated to stop them shooting me aren’t you?
It’s the good ol, stop Israel now or we’re going to burn thos place down. And Biden should fucking listen to that.
“Fortunately, we know many ways we can make the food system more resilient while reducing food emissions. The biggest opportunity in high-income nations is a reduction in meat consumption and exploration of more plants in our diets,” said Dr. Paul Behrens, an associate professor of environmental change at Leiden University in the Netherlands.
Honestly, most people in the modern West eat more meat than is healthy anyway.
Turns out hunter-gatherers haven’t evolved to eat meat every meal, three meals a day, all their lives.
That’s because the general population tried to imitate the rich when the standard of living increased, and the rich in general loved to hunt and eat lots of meat.
In my experience yes. I can’t describe the joy of the experience of being baked out of your mind buying way too much meat on a stick, going a stand over to get a thing of sticky rice in a bag, then the next stand a bubble tea, and finally devouring it on a random folding chair with a crate as a table.
As someone who lost 40kg by just eating mostly meat (one year meat for lunch, salami for dinner), I’d argue it’s healthier than the stuff that’s advertised to be healthy.
wanna build muscle? well, eating pasta and salad every day won’t get you very far.
Sure, there are other protein sources, but let’s be honest, nothing is more nutritional, efficient (and delicious) than meat.
I think we should really focus on the truely unhealthy shit that’s out there in the supermarkets, and not on meat.
You should study up on that vegan body builder, though I’m afraid that I don’t recall his name. Remember that when you digest the meat, you are reducing back to its amino acids which your body can put back together into new proteins. The same thing happens when you digest plant matter–you reduce the plant proteins into amino acids which your body then puts back together into its own proteins.
While I’m sure it’s possible, the fact that it’s “that vegan body builder” instead of the norm should be a clue on how generally effective it is. Personally I don’t eat a lot of meat, and of the meat I do eat, most is seafood, but I won’t deny that meat is the easiest way to get the nutrients you need. It’s also a lot more filling than carbs.
There’s one dude who made a big youtube channel on the topic. Don’t know if he’s still around. His whole shtick was helping obese people get into shape by teaching them his diet and workout routines.
Sure, but there’s the thing called PDCAAS, kind of a digestibility index for protein sources. in other words, how much of that protein can the body actually digest, the rest of it just gets pooped out.
And many plant based sources have a lower score, with a few exceptions.
Then, there’s the cost factor too, best bang for the buck.
I’m a vegetarian but my wife calls me an opportunistic meat eater, like a horse. I don’t eat meat, except when it’s Christmas and my mom makes her turkey, or the one time a year I allow myself to have a big Mac.
I don’t think my system could handle a steak, or pork anymore, it would probably destroy me.
Yes yes, fire and meat. That works fine when you’re a roving tribe and humans number in the hundred thousand range. That destroys the planet when you live in houses and there will be 10 billion by the year 2050. But go on.
I’m Latino and I’ve gone vegetarian, and to my father this is completely inconceivable. He’s used to having meat every meal, and is convinced that I’m going to fall ill if I don’t eat meat. I eat so many damn beans anyways that I’m good without it.
This whole eating meat every day, thing, seems pretty new right? Like industrial revolution forward. Most people in history weren’t expecting meat all the time
Yeah, I was thinking X to doubt. Honestly still am, because they can import as well as the next place, and some areas are only getting more productive.
Normal people: Handcuffed, taken out of the courtroom, and immediately thrown in prison upon sentencing.
The rich: Granted extra time to get their affairs in order, wait until after all appeals have been exhausted, then negotiate for a time they report to prison. Because we can’t be inconveniencing the wealthy now, can we…
Moving abroad is insanely expensive, getting citizenship in another country is insanely difficult, and most people don’t have the skills that other countries would want, nor the resources necessary to make the move. The amount of people who have the resources to do it and the willingness to follow through wouldn’t qualify as so much as a rounding error, let alone enough to get anyone to take notice.
Regardless of what your opinion is on our immigration laws (legal or otherwise), our laws are basically an open-borders policy when compared to every other country on the planet with similar economic prosperity. People act like you can just pack up and move to Canada or something on a whim over the weekend. Not gonna happen.
My Aunt said she’d leave if Trump was elected. Within the year she had sold her working farm and bed and breakfast and moved to Costa Rica with her husband.
Most people can’t afford to do that,or still have kids at home or whatever. And I honestly don’t like her or my uncle that much, but I was so proud of them that they did that. They had the resources, so they just did it.
Most people don’t have that freedom. But those who do should put their money where their mouth is.
Careful with those mental exercises bud, you might give yourselves a nosebleed.
Actually, a lot of the ex-Americans I’ve worked with are a pretty mixed bag, race-wise, and it’s not really surprising that non-white portion might have extra reasons to not be comfortable with the potential government of the future (that said, they might not be too impressed with the potential future government in Canada either).
I’ve also had the pleasure of working and socializing with a good number of intelligent, well-educated immigrants from India etc, but there’s a difference between bringing in educated members of a foreign country and opening the floodgates for McJobs so that corporations can keep on a cheap and easily-controllable workforce.
I’d welcome Americans looking to get away from fascism, but I’m not terribly impressed by bringing in large numbers of people from any country who bring their conflicts and hatreds from the motherland to here.
Shall I interestingly assume you’re totally ok with international assassinations being on the menu then? Where would you like them to serve it up next? And how?
How about Russian style with a little polonium tea?
I can’t help but notice that all the rich conservative shits all want to move to Costa Rica. It’s like a trend started by Rush Limbaugh. Your aunt moved to the one place where there would be more trumpism, not less.
They seem happy. They have a new bed and breakfast there (like a real one, where they host people, not air bnb) and my mom mentions they post on Facebook all the birds and sunsets and stuff. Shrug
While I agree with your overall point, if you think the US is “easy” to move to, you’re deluded. It’s far easier to move to the UK, Germany, France, Canada, Australia, and many other countries.
As a software engineer that works for a US company, with 15 years of experience, I can work pretty much wherever I want, except America.
The reason your immigration is so lop-sided is because your visa system is a joke. Many of your visas are taken by chop-shops that exploit foreign labour through low wages and threat of deportation. A sane president would make a more granular system that allows easy movement for people from “welcome” countries, while denying visas to specific sectors/countries that manipulate the system.
Are these the same farmers who were protesting regulations meant to stave off these “crushing conditions?”
If you’re referring to the recent protests in Europe I’d say that you missed the mark. The recent changes would have done nothing but put European farmers out of business while moving production to South America. So in addition to creating more food insecurity it would have also done more environmental damage as things would have still have been grown / raised and then required trans-Atlantic shipping!
The EU was trying to sell it as an environmental bill but it was nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to do with food production what’s been done with manufacturing; outsource the messy environmentally destructive part to somewhere else in the world so we can pretend it’s not happening.
"We hope Judge Jones will not further delay justice by appealing but, instead, face Harris County voters in a new election when ordered by the court,” Simpson said in a statement.
Appeal that shit. Then, appeal that appeal and push it till the November elections when people will be voting anyway.
Another possible headline was "At Morehouse, Biden says dissent should be heard because democracy is 'still the way'" or another "Biden tells Morehouse graduates that scenes in Gaza from the Israel-Hamas war break his heart, too"
Outside of the ceremony, a small number of protestors gathered while the commencement itself did not see any major disruptions.
Last week, Morehouse College President David Thomas said he would rather halt proceedings than have students escorted away for protesting.
"If my choice is 20 people being arrested on national TV on the Morehouse campus, taken away in zip ties during our commencement, before we would reach that point, I would conclude the ceremony," he said on NPR's Weekend Edition.
But, none of that happened -- either halting the ceremony or tackling or pepper spraying any of the people who were draped in Palestinian flags or turning their chairs around.
DeAngelo Fletcher, Morehouse College's valedictorian, closed his address to his classmates by addressing global conflict, particularly the Israel-Hamas war.
"For the first time in our lives, we've heard the global community sing one harmonious song that transcends language and culture," he said. "It is my sense as a Morehouse Man, nay – as a human being – to call for an immediate and a permanent ceasefire in the Gaza Strip."
IDK how much more pro Palestinian than that he got, and it sorta sounds like "both sides." But whatever. Anyway apparently Biden stood up and shook his hand after. Here's the whole video; Biden's part starts at around 1:43:30. Comparing the tenor of the thing if you take a look at it firsthand, against the tenor that's created from reading this particular headline, is a good little window on what they were trying to do by writing the headline that way (i.e. not to inform about what happened), and what ozma was trying to do by posting it here.
I don't actually think it matters all that much what anybody says about Gaza. Biden stopping the weapons shipments, pushing for an immediate cease fire and humanitarian aid, and supporting an ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu would be a good start. I think mostly this commencement speech is notable in that, hey look, (1) there was protest and it was ok (2) you can make things sound way different depending on which aspects you present in the media coverage.
Good for them. They're standing up for what they believe in, and I agree with them, and I definitely think that this type of thing has some impact on Biden's policies. Although at this rate, all the Palestinians will be dead before he works his way slowly and gradually around to the idea that maybe he'll have to do more than a sternly worded phone call with Netanyahu in order for the killing to stop.
You'll note that, because Biden bears little resemblance to the monstrous authoritarian caricature you try several times a day to paint him as, he and the college (who I'm sure talked with him about this exact issue, beforehand) both made no effort to "crack down" on them, and in fact he explicitly called out their protest as a good thing, during his speech.
(My point wasn't that the headline was a direct lie, but an example of engineering a single true fact by blowing it up and warping it to create a slanted picture of reality in the reader's mind. That's why I sent the full unedited video, as a way of contrasting it with a single event or a single picture taken from the perfect angle. I actually can't visit X video links since Elon fucked things up, but if you want to send me some non-X videos I'm happy to take a look at those, too.)
(Edit: Actually, I think the thing that they walked out as he gave his speech might be an actual lie. According to The New York Post, which seems to be the source for ozma's photo, it sounds to me like the students who left stayed through Biden's speech and then left during a later part when he was still on stage.)
I know it’s hard to comprehend that there’s people that aren’t Trumpers/Republican that don’t support genocide Joe, but there’s literally millions of us.
And with regards to the photo you claim was from NYP…
Photo by ANDREW CABALLERO-REYNOLDS/AFP via Getty Images
Trumpers/Republican that don’t support genocide Joe, but there’s literally millions of us.
Disregarding the stupid “gEnOciDe jOe” comment, do you have a source for millions of people willing to switch from voting for Joe Biden in 2020 to not voting for him in 2024?
There’s literally no candidates with a better track record on this than Biden, and any candidates that could have a better Palestine policy aren’t going to win.
Well for one, many people have problems calling this a genocide yet, me for one. I’ve had an entire branch of my family wiped out by the Holocaust, 90% of Belarussian Jews were exterminated, that’s literally almost everyone. The Germans purposely went door to door killing as many people as possible.
Meanwhile the highest estimate for civilian deaths in Gaza in 30k, or almost 1.5%. There’s a massive massive massive difference between these two. Israel isn’t going door to door trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible or indiscriminately bombing refugee camps for the fun of it, they just don’t care if they kill 10 civilians for one Hamas member.
And on the other hand, literally every other candidate would do worse than Biden in Gaza, Every. Single. One.
He’s not just the lesser of two evils, he’s literally the only option.
It doesn’t matter what you call it by. Its very own definition. It is genocide and it is being committed by a fascist liberal, and trying to claim that somebody else would commit murder worse is asinine.
Israelis don’t need to go door-to-door to kill everybody because they’re using US supplied weapons and white phosphorus to carpet bomb them.
Israelis don’t need to go door-to-door to kill everybody because they’re using US supplied weapons and white phosphorus to carpet bomb them.
Disregarding the rest of your comment, just this is dumb enough alone and shows how you feel about the situation.
Israel hasn’t been carpet bombing Gaza, Gaza is tiny, Israel has enough weaponry to immediately flatten the entire place tomorrow if they want. What you’re saying is incredibly disconnected from reality, and if it was true the casualties would be much much higher by now, almost in the millions.
Israel has been doing targeted strikes, not carpet bombing, even if it doesn’t seem like it because they’re still murdering thousands of children. When Israel encounters any form of resistance, whether that be an IED, rocket, or small arms fire, they stop, issue an evacuation order for that neighborhood, wait, and then bomb the shit out of it and storm it. The majority of the deaths have come from them not properly notifying an area they were supposed to evacuate before bombing it, or from civilians still being in the area after a proper evacuation order.
This is effectively the exact same thing Russia is doing in Ukraine, still fucking awful, still needs to be stopped immediately, and Biden still isn’t doing enough.
But it’s not the carpet bombing genocide you claim it to be.
Well when I’ve been a member of a socialist party for almost ten years now and worked on several socialist’s campaigns yeah it kinda does.
When you call everyone liberals it makes it super obvious yall think you’re the only form of leftists meanwhile a lot of the people yall are calling “libs” have put far more effort towards revolutionizing society than you could ever dream of.
Liberals are not even remotely leftist so they are in their own group. They support capitalism in all the oppression that comes with it, and they will defend their version of the oppression that comes with it tooth and nail
Yep I’m perfectly aware that’s the traditional leftist idea of a liberal. I wasn’t calling liberals leftists, simply saying that when you call other leftists/communists/socialists liberals just because you dislike their foreign policy takes you’re shooting yourself in the foot.
Theres nothing explicitly liberal about zionism, and you can come to either a Zionist or anti-Zionist point of view from leftism, as is obvious from Israel and Palestine both being controlled by socialists for the first 40 years of their history.
I think Biden is only about halfway to having humane foreign policy, which definitely isn’t enough, and I’ve said as much several times.
I think Biden is doing better than I expected a liberal president to do, he walked the picket line, the first ever for a president, he’s taken the green new deal and weakened it, which isn’t enough but more than what I expected, his FTC and NLRB have been great for the working class, he’s signed into law more protections for minorities and lgbt people, and then there’s the recent rescheduling of cannabis.
He ain’t enough, and I want him to do more on both foreign and domestic policy, but he’s not a fucking fascist like you’ve claimed.
I don't think you're a Trumper/Republican because you don't support Genocide Joe. I think you're a Trumper/Republican because the way you don't support him doesn't make any fucking sense. You criticize him for things he objectively didn't do, and you offer no particular solutions that would seem to lead to a better outcome for those of us who live in the US and want it to do less killing here and abroad, and the only solution that you seem to offer -- refusing to vote for him and offering an endless drumbeat of propaganda about him -- has an excellent possibility of leading to a catastrophically worse outcome for everyone. Including Palestinians. And, you're so vocal and consistent in criticizing him -- and only him -- for such a big variety of things real and imagined that it's hard for me to take away any possible conclusion than that you're trying to make sure he doesn't get elected.
It's possible that you're simply a very confused leftist. IDK. But that's my take on it. I note, also, that the story linked to also explicitly contradicts the headline, in terms of when students left ("walked out") from the ceremony:
Several students walked out of the graduation ceremony while Biden was presented with an honorary degree following his speech, CNN reported.
So they stayed to listen to him speak, and then walked out in protest when he was done speaking? This is impossible, to me, to read as anything other than a deliberate propaganda construction built on people leaving to go to the bathroom or something. IDK, maybe I'm missing something.
(Edit: Also, when I said the protestors were awesome and it's good that they let them protest, because it's a message Biden needs to hear because he is wrong, and then you immediately pretended that I had said the opposite and started lecturing me about how legitimate it is to disagree with Biden, I honestly didn't even notice because I'm sorta numb to that kind of thing at this point.)
Israel has done a lot of fucking around and the only ones who are slowly finding out are their closest allies who find themselves being dragged deeper and deeper into a full blown genocide.
You know how some people have one or three nuts? I bet this dude has like 46 completely unwashed nuts. The lice need to feed, and this dudes blood tastes like shit.
Steve bannon looks like the result of a teleportation experiment gone awry. now he’s started his metamorphosis into a half man half totalled 1998 Chevy Silverado monstrosity.
Yes but it’s wood that you are not allowed to burn or let rot, or the CO₂ gets released again. Basically, cut down trees and store them in oxygen-free water, salt mines, deserts or permafrost areas (or peat bogs, as nature did it over millions of years) where no bacteria/insects will feed on the wood and no humans come to scalp it. There is no way this can be economical, even with today’s carbon credits. Trees are “free” solar carbon capture devices but slow and inefficient, and need to be logged-and-stored continuously to work at all, as there is only a very limited space that we can cover in new forests in the next few decades.
I know they just want to find the best use for waste wood but I think there is too little of it in the first place.
Fleeing to where? If Americans are worried about the rise of fascism at home, I have bad news about the rest of the world. There are no greener pastures. The countries with better quality of life than the U.S. have very strict immigration laws. The U.S. is already the country you go to when yours sucks, no other democratic country has immigration policy as liberal. Trying to flee is circling the drain.
Maybe instead of trying to run away from problems, vote in the upcoming election and just prevent Trump’s dictatorship!
100%. The Conservative party is currently leading polls here in Canada because of the unpopularity of Justin Trudeau.
The Conservative party are also conspiracy-loving, reality-denying loonies like the Republicans, but since “we’re Canada”, and “it can’t happen here”, they’ll probably form the government next year.
I don’t believe in polls because they all said Hilary was going to win. They also said that Trump was going to win again. Those polls mean nothing. For all I care, they’re being manipulated by Russia, China, North Korea and Iran.
For all I care, they’re being manipulated by Russia, China, North Korea and Iran.
This is the silliest MAGA style conspiracy nonsense…
You not understanding polling doesn’t mean they are disinformation, that’s a ridiculous thing to say. Or, maybe just like now, you dismissed information that you disliked and as such had another misinformed understanding of things.
Polling aggregators like 538 said that trump had a 1/3 chance of winning and the thing about 1/3 chances is that they happen about 1/3 times!
And then trump damn near won 2020 and lost by under 12,000 votes in one state. You can’t get much closer than that!
Except they weren’t. Every poll presented all across social media was OMG RED WAVE!! Polls are shit. The only one that matters EVER is the one on election day.
If you got your news from non social media and looked at polls, not punditry, you’d have known the most likely outcome was pretty much what happened, the Republicans won a narrow majority.
Don’t blame polling for your ignorance.
Edit: If you want an interesting (okay, interesting to nerds like me) recounting of the polling in 2022:
You should try stomping around the room and yelling at the screen.
?
Polls are shit. Only one poll counts.
If Clinton had paid attention to them, trump might not have won.
Even the article you posted has a self-inserted bias.
With what part do you disagree? They post all the methodology and results. Or are you just “this person works in polling so I can’t trust them despite them laying out everything for me to see!”
You haven’t presented a logical thought just “I DISLIKE POLLS” which is pretty silly.
You may not like what the polls say but that doesn’t mean they aren’t valid kiddo. As you grow up, you’ll realize that lots of things that are unpleasant are still true no matter how much we wish otherwise. Throwing a tantrum doesn’t change the validity of polling.
I hear you and we are voting. That said, backup plans are a thing for good reasons.
My wife is Jewish and something she once said to me lives rent free in my brain. “The gross majority of the Jews you know are descended from people who left when they had a feeling. The ones who waited until it was obviously bad did not make it out.”
Fascism is on the rise globally, but not every country will be led by someone who has actively courted neo-Nazis as part of their base. I saw how emboldened those people felt during his first term, and we anticipate it could only get much worse during a second. We do not want to leave, but we fear that staying may become unsafe for our family.
Me over here emigrating to a Scandinavian country. My family thought she was with me to get an anchor baby here in the us, little did they know it was I who was trying to sneak across borders.
I moved to the Netherlands ages ago. It suits me very well, but many Americans would hate it. Rather than try to convince 300 million people that the Dutch way of life is better, I think it’s okay to just live here instead.
There are lots of things that would bother many Americans. Taxes are high (top tax bracket is 50% or so, and that starts pretty low, plus 21% sales tax), salaries are less. Gas is expensive, people in cities don’t have cars, and most outline of cities have one car per home. Houses are small, shops close early.
The cultural differences run deeper. The primary goal of Dutch civilization is a word that they claim is untranslatable, gezelligheid, which roughly means “cosiness”, but extends to many things that you wouldn’t apply “cosy” to, like a gezellig party, a gezellig walk with friends, a gezellig meal. Success is admired, but you are expected not to show off. Working part-time is normal… 80% of women work part time… and losing the extra income is considered completely worthwhile. Religion is common but being irreligious is much more common; not atheist, as much as just not caring at all about religion.
Nobody has credit card debt. The only thing Dutch people buy on credit is their home.
The Dutch have a reputation for being tolerant, but the culture is actually deeply sexist and racism abounds. An anti-Muslim politician just won our recent national election, and right wing parties did well: the fascist wave washing over the West had washed over the Netherlands too.
In 24 years here I’ve never met a single Dutch person with a gun, except for police. Police in Holland are restrained by laws - a policeman in Rotterdam panicked and fired at a car who ran from a traffic stop and is facing charges, even though nobody was injured. People don’t fear cops, although they are still tools of state power.
The high taxes do provide a security net, although unemployment is lower than in the USA, and people don’t stay unemployed for long. A lot of Dutch people suffer burnout, which is recognised as a medical condition, and basically get paid to not work for a while until they recover. We’ve had a pro-business government for over a decade so our health care is privatized, which is why it is one of the most expensive in the world. Everyone gets medical care though.
You have to register with the government to tell them where you live. The upside is that they just mail you a ballot to vote, since they know where you live. There are no voting computers, because activists showed that they can be hacked.
People put out flags when their kids graduate high school and on the king’s birthday. Having a flag any other time would be a bit weird.
Dutch don’t eat out or order food much. Traditional Dutch food is objectively terrible. Luckily modern Dutch food is delicious. Meat alternatives are cheaper than meat, although milk is still cheaper than fake milk.
Nou, eerlijk zeggen vinden veel Nederlanders het heel fijn in Amerika te wonen. Grote huis, grote autos, mooier weer… kan niet beter! Ik vind deze dingen niet belangrijk, maar ik snap waarom mensen uit Holland verhuizen naar de VS.
Ze lijken zelfs gewoon over de grens naar België te stromen, een gemiddelde Hollandse stadswoning is echt belachelijk klein voor die lange Hollanders, en teringduur ;)
The article: “a bunch of us are worried about the potential rise of fascism in the United States, so we’re moving to Italy”
Tell me that you are oblivious to international politics without literally telling me that you are oblivious to international politics.
More to the point, if Americans were the type to “flee in droves,” left-wingers would have left states like Texas and Florida en-masse for bluer pastures. Moving within the United States is a million times easier than moving overseas, and if they’re not doing the former in the face of fascism/degradation of human rights in red states, why on earth would they engage in the much more difficult latter? Definitely sounds like a case of taking anecdote and non-committal musings online too seriously.
I dunno, something feels different this time. One of my co workers just asked for advice on what country to move to if Trump is re elected.
The reason I think it’s different this time is because this is the same co worker that used to make fun of me for thinking that Trump’s second term will usher in America’s first dictatorship. It ain’t funny now.
Stay in the US. Honestly. The threat isn’t the rising tide of hateful rhetoric from right-wing extremists. The threat is that a bunch of christo-fascist doomsday worshippers get sole access to 50% of the nuclear weapons on the planet.
Many people are doing that. And republicans are migrating in the opposite direction, too.
The problem is most people can’t just up and leave.its expensive, we have to line up jobs, housing, etc; and many people don’t want to leave family and friends.
I’m in Texas. I know less than a dozen Republicans and maybe 3 of them are Trumpsters. I voted in the Republican primary and, while researching candidates and propositions, i was shocked at how horrible they all are!!! I was trying to choose the least crazy candidates and they’re weren’t any!
As someone who spent 20 years living in foreign countries, there is a political distance when you’re somewhere else. US politics are happening on a different part of the globe, and it takes a long time to really understand local politics. I’m leaving soon, but that’s happening whatever the outcome of the election as it was already planned.
Depends on how they’re moving to Italy. They have generous repatriation laws if you are descended from an Italian who emigrated. So by following that repatriation process to reclaim Italian citizenship opens up the whole EU.
Even traveling. I forget the stat I heard years ago but iirc it was a majority of people hadn’t even travelled outside of that. Which I get to some extent since most people live in cities, but having been raised in the middle of nowhere misery it’s necessary to travel more than 20 miles just to get to a damn grocery store. Once I had a car myself I was road tripping constantly
No state income tax, but those morons tax you for home ownership far more than some states. Electricity is more exp, even housing isn’t as cheap as it was 5 years ago. I paid more in property taxes in Texas than I pay here for property and state income on a house worth 3x what I had in Texass.
And where the hell in Texass are you saying has comparable weather with Colorado? Maybe south Colorado, or close to Kansas. But as a whole, texass weather has no match to anything as nice as Colorado weather.
Now the, that place is run by a corrupt bunch of fucktards.
My friend and I moved to Germany last year. We met some Americans from st. Louis who moved the year before.
It’s anecdotal but not unreasonable to imagine some amount of brain drain is happening because of the instability in the US driven by late stage capitalism.
At one point my German husband was looking into becoming a US citizen, but just never got around to it. I stopped encouraging it years ago, because Germany has weird laws about dual citizenship and he would likely have to give his up to become a US citizen. As a result, we have a European exit plan. While I’d really like the US to get it’s shit together, knowing we have options is nice.
You no longer have to give up citizenship to be a German citizen, and the US doesn’t require that either. A new law passed this year and comes into effect sometime around April I believe (still new to the exact legislation process in this country).
But yes, I would not encourage anyone to move to the US at this time. They are the largest proponent of late stage capitalism and those policies bring instability to the worker classes which begets authoritarianism. That’s rarely a good thing for anyone.
forget brain drain because of leaving the US, it’s brain drain from the lack of local industry. Nobody here knows how to do anything in regards to manufacturing lol.
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